Forest, I think this is getting more and more confusing (my fault I expect! :laugh: ) Perhaps it will help if I go back to your first post, and insert my comments:
I agree. All people of all places and all times (past, present and future) who know the Lord Jesus Christ personally do indeed make up the bride of Christ.
If you mean that many of the elect have already died and gone to be with their Saviour, and possibly (depending on when the Lord comes again) many have yet to be born, I would agree with that, too. But if you mean that you believe that most Christians alive on earth today are not part of the visible church, I disagree.
As far as I know, this notion of a wheel within a wheel is mentioned twice inb Ezekiel, in 1:6 and 10:10:
The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel.But please tell me, what makes you think that the outer wheel represents the bride of Christ and the inner wheel the visible church?
As for their appearance, all four looked alike––as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel.
As with the Ezekiel wheels, what makes you think that the wide gate is entered by the elect who teach the false doctrine of salvation by works, and the narrow gate is entered by the "invisible church"? Do you not see that if someone believes in salvation by their own works, that person will see no reason for trusting the Lord Jesus Christ?
I hope that helps you to understand what I have been saying on this thread a bit more clearly.
Baptist Bride?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Apr 1, 2012.
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Now I'm confused. The Bride and the visible church are two different entities?
Also, doesn't this mean that the Universal Church is riddled with error, even heresy, even though members may be saved?
Can any denomination which teaches error qualify as a New Testament Church?
What is the function of the Universal Church? Where does it meet? Does it take up an offering?
Just thought I'd throw out these questions to get some of you stirred up. -
More questions:
Are Baptists wrong about any of the doctrines and practices which are the identifying marks which make them Baptist?
If the Baptist view is Biblical, then obviously Baptist churches are true New Testament churches. Where does that leave those who have different doctrines and practices? Can they qualify as New Testament churches? If not, then they are neither the Bride or the "visible" church, are they? -
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Many who hold to the U-Church have always assumed that this was an unchallenged and unchallengable view, because they never heard anybody question it. Or, they have heard the view that I hold, but only from those who think it's heresy.
Most have never been required to examine the U-church view in light of a challenge to it.
My purpose is to provide that challenge, and force some folks out of their comfort zones.
That's why I ask such questions as, what does the U-church actually do? -
I see that you refused to come out of your comfort zone & answer the questions concerning the church. Either that, or you cannot find passages which clearly detail your answers.
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A New Testament church is a group of believers who have covenanted together in worship, Bible study, ministry, missions,evangelism and other things it may decide to to do in Jesus' name..
My church is a New Testament Church. I'll bet yours is one, too.
Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry when he had completed calling the Twelve.
First requirement: It should actually meet. Regularly. The scripture records that the practice then was on the first day of the week.
Should have officers: Pastor(s)(elders)(bishops) and deacons. Pastor, elder and bishop are the same person. See Acts 20:28 and the verses immediately preceding.
It should observe the ordinances, baptism (the door to church membership) and the Lord's Supper. Acts 2, I Cor 11, I Cor 12:13.
It should be obedient to the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19-20
I'll stop there to wait for you to make your point. You know what a NT congregation is as well as I do, and I expect we'll agree more than not. -
Also, where do you see in Scripture that we must be covenanted together by any covenant other than the New Covenant in Christ's blood? -
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A group which purposely comes together to form a church builds that church around common doctrines and practices, and a commitment both to God and to each other. To me, that's a covenant, an agreement, a joining of hearts and minds in a common purpose. -
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This is the wall I have run into with every visible church-only defender I have spoken with. I have yet to meet one who will quantify his/her beliefs with specific Biblically-supported requirements for a group to be considered by God to be a church. They refuse because the answers cut to the heart of their own beliefs. If they were to search the Scriptures for the answers, they would have to admit that they have been assuming that their "facts" are givens rather than ensuring that they are Biblically-derived truths. -
I certainly agree that preaching, praying and singing are functions of a New Testament church But I must ask for clarification. Do I really understand you to say that Bible study, missions and evangelism are not functions of a New Testament church? Would you expand on how you reached that conclusion? -
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