And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65)
Frank,
You deny the sovereignty of God in salvation. If salvation were of the free will of man, Jesus would not have made such a statement as is recorded in John 6:65.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Rom. 9:16)
To you, salvation is just another choice we make. This belief is totally foreign to the word of God. If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Is. 46:10)
And according to His good pleasure, He predestinated those He chose before the foundation of the world to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph. 1:5)
Baptist (Catholic) Missionaries
Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Christopher, Apr 27, 2002.
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Larry:
1.Prove the Holy Spirit directly operates on the sinner to save him.
2.Prove your assertion about I Cor.2:14. I have read and posted the meaning of the context. Please prove to me the meaning of the context is incorrect and, therefore, not harmonious with the rest of the revealing fo God's truth to man.
3. Who are you to say it does not mean as I have posted?
4. I have provided the scriptural evidence for my position. You are not engaged in proving yours. It appears you are disconnected with what the Bible says.
5. You ignore the very beginning of what God did when he created man. God created man good.( Gen1:31). He made man in his own image.( Gen. 1:26,27). When did man become a sinner? Remember, sin is the transgression of law. (I Jn. 3:4).
6. You are asking God to engage in a logical contradiction. giving man a will and not letting him use it. Gods does not do this.
7. Men do not inherit sin. If so, You have the inherited guilt of sin greater than the personal righteousness of Christ,as according to you, only the foreordained elect will be saved. In other words Christ died for the elect and them only.
8. Adam sinned because of his choice. According to you, God told him not to eat of the fruit, but he then made him do it because he made him a sinner. This would be like me telling my kids do not eat that candy and then putting it in their mouth making them eat it. Then punishing them because they ate the candy. This is the implication of what you believe.
9. You have not dealt with the toatlity of the evidence, if I held your position I would not either. Howwever the Bible says In Psalms 119:160 "the sum total of they words are truth."
10.Men come to God who are taught.( John 6:45). so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.( Roms. 10:17). Again, accepting evidence.( Jn.20:30,31, Hebs. 11:1).
Moroever, in the same chapter and verse 66,67 some disciples left and followed him no more with him. Jesus asked the 12 will ye also go away? If they were drawn by the Spirit and are the elect he already knew it and had no reason to ask the question? Becauwe you also believe the impossibility of apostasy. However, the Bible teaches us that men can fall away and be lost.( Gal. 5:4,II Tim. 2:17, Rev. 20:10;21:27)
11. You have accused me of teaching false doctrine. You have made an assertion. You have not proven it.ASSERTIONS ARE NOT PROOF.I agree their is false teaching but it is not emanating from me.
12. I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for IT IS THE POWER of GOD UNTO SALVATION to EVERYONE that BELIEVETH to the JEW first and also to the GREEK.(Romans 1:16). Romans 1:16 wil still read the same way today , tomorrow and until time on this earth is over. It will read that way on the day of Judgement,too! It does not matter how many people say the gospel is not the power to save us. The Bible says it does!
Frank -
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I agree. But not all men who are taught come to Christ. Why? As Christ tells us in John 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." This is why people don’t come and this is the truth you want to ignore. It is the evidence from Christ himself that you will not address. When you understand the context of 6:37, 44 you see that all who are drawn will come and will be raised up. There is no room for one to be drawn but not to be raised up in eternal life. This is the Scripture."
Nice how you take scripture OUT OF CONTEXT to try to build you how theology out of verses that you misuse. We don't ignore it we Just know in what Context it is being used.
First of all..the Gospel of John is still..OLD TESTAMENT written to the JEWS. and Please notice that Jesus tells you that the Sprit that Quickeneth is the WORD!! Jesus says that His words give life. As a matter of fact you are told twice that The words of Jesus Give eternal life.
anyway down to v. 64 it says "But there are some of you that believe not( talking to his diciples)not because they can't.. it doesn't say that.
And if you compare verse 64 to what you were told in verse44 you see that men are drawn by God..and then at the end of the chapter you are told that it is WORD that gives life. your theory's are very wrong and not sound doctrine.
and you pointing out that Jesus Knew from the Beginning who would belive him and who would betray him Does not prove one single thing having to do with any Calvinist doctrine. beginning of what? his Ministry perhaps?
You want to get technical and try to prove that these verses prove that Christ actually chose people for salvation you better take a look at v.70 that is right there in the context. It says he chose 12 and one of them was a DEVIL. Jesus CHOSE 12, men were chosen by Jesus himself and one was a devil..He did the same works as the rest, in fact the rest had no idea who would betray Jesus.
you Calvinist might be devils being deceived into thinking your saved.
Brother Frank you keep on your right on track. you made very excellent points.. -
. Adam sinned because of his choice. According to you, God told him not to eat of the fruit, but he then made him do it because he made him a sinner.
That is what Frank said Larry and you said it was a lie..how so?
Are you A Calvinist? Don't you believe in TOTAL DEPRAVITY Of man? So by your reasoning..man can't go to god, so in order for man to get saved God has to first save him so he can accept. and since man can't accept Jesus this is done against the man's will. So actually Frank hit it right on the nose. Man either has free will to choose to obey God or else God forces man to sin against his commandments. which is it?
Do you belive you sin? you still have your OLD NATURE! or does God make you sin? or Do you have a choice to obey God?
What frank wrote isn't a lie..what is a lie is the Calvinist theology. -
Has anyone on this board ever said God makes people sin? Just curious...
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is that all you have to say about what was posted or is this your way of not dealing with issues that were brought up?
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Your logic and theology are convoluted, and so full of strawmen, its hard to know where to begin. :rolleyes:
God is First Cause of all things. He must be for He is God. "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." (Col 1:16-17). God has ordained all that is and all that occurs for one purpose: to glorify His name above the heavens. ALthough he ordains everything which comes to pass, he often works through secondary causation (creatures) so as to bring about his perfect will, even through the sinful acts of evil men. "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." (Gen 50:20). The evil actions of Joseph's brother were foreordained so as to bring about the bondage in Egypt of Israel, and their deliverance through Moses, as a foreshadowing of the plan of redemption in Christ. "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Rom 8:28).
If you say that God did not know Adam would sin, then you are an open theist and deny the God of the Bible. If you say God knew Adam would sin, but created him anyway, and allowed all of mankind to fall into sin, then you have not "removed" the culpability of God anymore than the Calvinist; but rather have made God a willing accomplice in man's depravity. Only Biblical theology - Calvinism - realizes that God is First Cause, and all that he ordains is good, even the evil in the world, for anything God does is good by definition and not by man's feeble definitions, and God's ordinances work through Secondary Causes to serve His greater purpose: the glorification of his name among creation through the redemption of lost sinners.
The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter III
Of God's Decree
I. God hath decreed in Himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever come to pass;[1] yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;[3] in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.[4]
1. Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18
2. James 1:13; I John 1:5
3. Acts 4:27-28; John 19:11
4. Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5
You may prefer the unbiblical God who is only a crystal-ball gazer and foresees what will happen by sovereign men; I prefer to put my faith and trust in the Sovereign God of the Bible who is in control of every molecule of the universe, and even controls evil, for my eternal betterment.
Isaiah 46:3-13 (ESV)
"Listen to me, O house of Jacob,
all the remnant of the house of Israel,
who have been borne by me from before your birth,
carried from the womb;
[4] even to your old age I am he,
and to gray hairs I will carry you.
I have made, and I will bear;
I will carry and will save.
[5] "To whom will you liken me and make me equal,
and compare me, that we may be alike?
[6] Those who lavish gold from the purse,
and weigh out silver in the scales,
hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god;
then they fall down and worship!
[7] They lift it to their shoulders, they carry it,
they set it in its place, and it stands there;
it cannot move from its place.
If one cries to it, it does not answer
or save him from his trouble.
[8] "Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
[9] remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
[11] calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
[12] "Listen to me, you stubborn of heart,
you who are far from righteousness:
[13] I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off,
and my salvation will not delay;
I will put salvation in Zion,
for Israel my glory." -
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I have warned you before about your demeanor. You cleaned it up a bit but are starting to return to your old ways. Keep it on topic, not on people and dispense with personal attacks. -
Larry:
1. Name a person in the New Testament that was saved by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit?
2. Give me a declarative statement that says the direct operation of the Holy Spirit must regenerate man to save him?
3.Provide the totality of evidence that teaches that the direct operation of the Holy Spirit must regenerate so as to save him? You have not answered one, and two, and have not shown any passage that so indicates three. I have read all of the ones you have posted. God draws by the cross. ( Jn.12). Men come to God in faith. ( Hebrews 11:6). They receive evidence and respond.( Jn. 20:30,31, MK. 16:16). The Gospel draws, and teaches men what they must do to be saved. Acts 16:30, Acts 9:6, Acts 2:37, Romans 1:16). The words, context and implications so teach this. And that is what the Good book says.
Well, I guess that does not matter either because a depraved person is incline to not good thing so the Bible cannot help him. The depraved person's will is messed up. He wouldn't be saved if he could and he couldn't be saved if he would. I guess if you are the non-elect you just eat, drink and be merry, for you wil die and split hell wide open and there is not one thing you can do about it. This is the implication of Calvinism. WHO believes it?
Furthermore, you do not know what i believe about Romans 5. I have not mentioned it. Again, just like the John 3:16 you are just poisoning the waters.
The implications about Calvinism are correct. You just do not like it. I guess the Bible is just a dead letter. It,according to you has NO POWER, Instead of being THE POWER. That is an interesting concept indeed. You cannot have it both ways. It is either the Spirit or The Gospel.I still affirm the GOSPEL IS GOD'S POWER TO SAVE. ( ROMANS 1:16). I understand it real well. It says what it says and mean exactly what it says.
Do you believe you have the same Holy Spirt as Paul? If so, answer the question the jailer asked in Acts 16:30. After all, if you have the same Spirit the answer will be the same. I hope you will do this.
Frank -
The Spirit works through the gospel to save those who believe. This is the uniform testimony of Scripture.
You keep addressing things that are not at the root of the issue. YOu deny the biblical teaching about the nature of man and God. Until you accept that, you will continue to err.
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I think it is about time to start winding this down. It is not progressing in the least. If you have specific passages to address then list them and we will talk about those. These general posts are repeats of the same things that have been previously posted and thus are useless. -
"For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, decieved, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour. "(Titus 3)
[ May 01, 2002, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ] -
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (John 16:8)
The "he" being referred to is the Holy Ghost. -
Larry:
You left the jailhouse to soon. There is no evidence of any Holy Spirt direct operation in the text not by declarative statement,example or implication. I will answer the question. The Bible says, in response to the question, in verse 31, and they said,believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house.Vs. 32. And they spake unto him the Direct operation of the Holy Spirit,NO! the text says the WORD OF THE LORD and to all that were in his house.Vs. 33.And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes: and was baptized he and all his straightway. By the way, the only one who could baptize with the Holy Spirt was Christ.(Mat. 3:11).
This baptism had a human administrator.( Mat. 28:19,20). It was a birth in water and put him in the church which is the kingdom. Mat. 16:18,19). The church and the kingdom being the same entity as the one body.( I Cor.12:13, Col. 1:18 Eph. 1:22,23.) Romans 6:3,4 and Col. 2:12 indicate the baptism that saves is that of water baptism.(Roms. 6:3,4,Col. 2:12). If not, then one is buried In something and raised from that something.If it is water then it makes sense. If it is the element of the Spirit,one is forced to accept he is buried in the Spirit and then raised from it. This implies one does not have the Spirit.(Romans 8:9,Gal.4:6).
Frank -
However, to answer your point, there is no evidence from the text that the Holy Spirit was not in direct operation. Your problem is that you still cannot explain why he asked that question. The teaching that the Holy Spirit is directly operating in every salvation is clear from Scripture. The only reason to deny it appears to be to uphold an unbiblical view of man. I cannot understand how this can be a problem.
You say it was the Word of the Lord. Yet on teh basis of 1 Cor 2:14, he cannot understand the word of the Lord until the Holy Spirit does something in him to illuminate him. Therefore, intepreting Scripture by Scripture shows your understanding to be incorrect.
[ May 01, 2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ] -
Russell:
Please quote the verse that teaches Lydia was saved by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit?
The text says in verse 14,"Heard us" whose Heart the Lord opened. She responded to what she heard. No direct operation here either. Because faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God. (Romans 10:17).
John 3:3-5 requires a birth in water. see also Acts 2:38,47;Col. 1:18, I Cor 12:13,Eph. 1:22,23;
Acts 8: 38,I Peter 3:21).
Romasn 6:3,4 require a baptism in water. If so, one is buried in something and raised from that something. If water it makes sense, if it is Spirit, then one is buried and raised FROM the Spirit. This implies you are none of his( Romans 8:9,Gal. 4:6).
Finally, the baptism of the great commission was by human administrators. (Mat. 28:19,20). The baptism of the Holy Spirt was by Christ only.(Mat. 3:11).
Frank -
"...and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
Paul preached the gospel, Lydia listened, and the Lord opened Lydia's heart so she would respond. That sounds like pretty direct operation to me. God worked inside Lydia so that she would respond.
[ May 01, 2002, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ] -
Larry:
The Bible says man must be born of water and spirit.(Jn. 3:3-5).Men are saved by the washing of water by the word.(Eph. 5:26), it does not say by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit. It says washing of water by the word. Men are washed in the blood of Christ for sins to be forgiven. ( Jn. 1:29, Rev. 1:5, I Peter 1:17, 18). How? and when does this take place. It happens when one contacts the blood in Water baptism for unto the remission of sins.(Acts 2:38, Acts 8:38). The Eunoch was baptized in the water for the remission of his sins after he heard the message about the Lamb of God.( Is.53, Jn. 1:29, IPet.1:17,18). He was baptized in water.( Acts 8:38).
Jesus promised to guide the apostels in all the truth.(Jn.16:13). He told them to go to Jerusalem to receive the power to know the truth of the gospel.(Lk. 24:49). They went to Jerusalem and received the power to know the truth of the gospel.( Acts 2:1-4, Jn. 3:3-5 the spirit). They proclaimed the gospel by the power promised THEM. They preached the word. The text says it is the word that saved the three thousand. (vs. 39-41).
In Acts 8:12-17, the Sanarians were baptized. ( Vs,12). The Bible teaches us that did NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.( vs.16). Therefore, they were not baptized by the Holy Spirit. In fact, they were baptized in water as a response to the WORD. (vs.14). Washing of water by the word.( Eph. 5:26).
Your reply about baptism is without Biblical support. There are two times in the Bible where the baptism of the Holy Spirit happened.( Acts 2 and 10). Peter said the only other time he could remember the baptism of the Holy Spirit was in Acts 2, as it happened at the Household of Cornelious. You claim it happens everyday. Poor Peter I guess he had Alzheimers.( Acts 11:15). The baptism of Acts 2 was on the apostels who proclaimed the inspired message of the Gospel. (Acts 2:38). The pouring out on flesh was completed when the gentile house of Cornelious was baptized by the Holy Spirit. SALVATION WAS NOT GIVEN TO EITHER GROUP BY THIS ACTION. The Holy Spirit provided the power to the keys of the kingdom.(Mat. 16:18,19, Col. 1:12,13, Eph. 1:22,23, I Cor. 12:12, 13). It was the word that saved.( Acts 2:40,41). It was the washing of water by the word. ( Eph.5:26).
In the two cases of Holy Spirit miraculous intervention, NO ONE WAS SAVED. Furthermore,neither baptism was ADMINISTERD BY MAN WHICH IS REQUIRED BY THE AUTHORITY OF JESUS CHRIST TO BE DONE UNITL THE END OF THE WORLD.( Mat. 28:18-20). Therefore, it was not the baptism that saves.( I Peter 3:21).
Larry, Calvinism reminds me of a passage in Jeremiah 2:13, it is a cistern a broken cistern that holds no water.
1. Calvinism denies men must have and active faith to be saved. Romans 16:26, Hebrews 11:6, Acts 2:40 teaches he does.
2. Ask the question what must I do to work the works of God. The Calvimnist replies.. Nothing. The Bible teaches there is work he must do. ( Jn. 6:29).
3. Calvinism teaches a direct operation of the Holy Spirt must take place in order to save. the Bible teaches it is the word of truth that saves.( James 1:18,21).Men are begotten by the word, not by the intervention of the Holy Spirit.( I Cor 4:15).
4. Calvinism teaches man is depraved.(God said he made us GOOD.( Gen.1:31,Eccl. 7:29, Gen. 1:26,27).
5. Calvinism denies the very defintion of sin and what constitutes sin. ( I Jn.3:4). It is missing the mark. It requires and action. It is not inherited.( Ezek. 18:4,20).
6. Calvinism teaches that the inherited guilt of Adam's sin is greater that the personal
a righteousness of Christ,as he died for the elect only.Yet,ALL MEN Inherit the guilt of Adam's sin. Jesu died for all men. ( Hebrews 2:9,I Jn. 2:2).
7. Calvinism denies the Power of the gospel message to save man from his sins. Romans 1:16 teaches us it is God's Only Power to save everyone.
8. Calvinism denies men have any active role in their salvation. The Bible teaches there is something we must DO. (Acts 9:6;16:30;2:37). The Bible teaches us we must have an obedient faith.(Romans 16:26. Romans 1:17). Jesus said, we must believe. ( Jn.8:24). We must repent. ( Luke 13:3,5). Jesus said we must confess him. ( Mat. 10: 32). Jesus said we must be baptized. ( Mark 16:16). Jesus said we must be faithful. (Rev. 2:10).
9. Calvinism teaches that the unborn and infants are sinners. Jesus said men must be converted and become as little children. (Mat. 18:3). Jesus said," suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of heaven." One must become as a little child or he will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.(Lk.18:16).
Frank -
I would direct all of you to http://www.pbsermons.org/ to listen to Elder Lasserre Bradley's sermon entitled "Gospel in Power and Holy Ghost." Listen and find out what the purpose of the Gospel is!
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Russell
I read the text. Here it is for you. Except a man be born of WATER and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Russell read the whole counsel of God on the matter.( Acts 20:27). The spirit provided the keys to the kingdom. ( Mat. 16:19, Lk. 24:49, Acts 2:1-4,38). Water baptism is for unto the remission for sins. ( Acts 8:38,12-16,I Peter 3:21). It is done by the washing of water by the word. ( Eph. 5:26) It is the Holy Spirit that deliverd the word. ( Eph. 6:17, Hebrews 4:12). This is the promise of Jn. 14:26, 15:26;16:13). Notice in Acts 2 he fell and they spoke and men obeyed and were saved. ( Acts 2:38-47).
Lydia was saved the same way as any other person in the gopsel dispensation. She heard had faith and was baptized for unto the remission of sins.(Acts 2:38). The passage of Acts 2:38 makes no sense if it is Holy Spirit baptism, as it would mean that they were baptized by the Holy Spirit and then received again.
Frank
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