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Featured BAPTIST SUCCESSION

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by 37818, Aug 29, 2022.

  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    A distinction without a difference.

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck …
     
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, “echo chambers” (where everyone agrees on everything) are actually boring.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    THEN it could be Rich Little!
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I wouldn't say "without a difference". Baptistic churches prior to the 16th century existed. But they held a "Christus Victor" view of the Atonement (most today do not). They also had other distinctions (e.g., a separation doctrine, no oaths, ect.).

    I think it's fair to say they were Baptist in what makes Baptists distinct. But I am not so sure they would view most Baptists as holding what made them distinctive.
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    See, conversation are more interesting when people get to be WRONG. :Biggrin ;)

    (Christus Victor is not a disqualification.)
    (Most Baptist Churches are suspicions of other Baptist Churches ... so they would fit right in !
    ) :)
     
    #45 atpollard, Nov 7, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2022
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That claim, as such, is an early 20th century interpretation.
     
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The sole explicit succession is the Apostolic being the New Testament documents [the 27 books].
     
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, it isn't. We know Anabaptist theologies (while groups differed we know their basic theology).
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Who is giving this Anabaptist reference?
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That would be me.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Anabaptists that we might know anything about from the 16th century. The Christus Victor as a named concept didn't exist until 20th century.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Take the "big name" of each of the groups listed in the pre-1600 groups listed and ask Would our church have this person speak in our worship? 100% NO WAY.

    In some ways they were baptistic, in others? Cannot find a single group listed that would qualify as a Baptist church.

    Just because a group held views akin to the main Baptist distinctives today does NOT mean they can be label as "Baptist".

    And when did the promotion of "two officers: pastor and deacon" and the "congregational government" become Baptist distinctives even today? My church had elders, one of which did pastoral work, one did preaching/teaching, one did pr/media/financial as these elders were gifted. And we were an elder-led church, not a "democracy" (congregation votes, majority rule) which I do not see in the NT
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Scratch anything from the conversation of, "Baptist", with regard to History we're looking at
    that is not,

    All others are eliminated.


    Same here. An elder-led church does not have Christ as her head. She has, "elders".
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    A mob-led church (remember, a democracy is mob rule just a small step from total anarchy in that there is membership for a democracy. It was the reason God gave elders to lead a church as under-Shepherds to our Lord, the Chief Shepherd. Shepherds lead, they don't take a vote.

    In the Baptist rush away from papacy, bishops, vicars and denominational hierarchy, we jump to the other extreme - rule of the congregation. And this is a type of polity that is fine as long as that is LED by the elders.

    Brother, maybe we should start a new thread on this topic. I'm fine to debate the pro/con of pure democracy in a church v elder leadership
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "

    From the comment; "Take the "big name" of each of the groups listed in the pre-1600 groups listed and ask Would our church have this person speak in our worship?"

    Here is some old fashion preaching for you, preached to an autonomous congregation.

    What is Acceptable Baptist and Unacceptable Baptism? - Baptist Because
     
  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Dr Bob
    Based on a democrat vote - I just did so! Link for the new thread
     
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Enabler of Succession is THE HOLY GHOST
    WHO IS THE ADMINISTRATOR
    OR MANAGER OF EACH PARTICULAR
    BAPTIST-BELIEVING CHURCH.


    Baptist History Homepage



    Outlines in Systematic Theology
    THE ORGANIZATION OF A CHURCH

    Colossians 1:18 and Ephesians 1:22-23
    By Berlin Hisel

    I. JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF EACH CHURCH.
    A. Each Church Is a Sovereignty,
    Recognizing No King and No Ruler, But Christ.

    1. All New Testament churches sustain the same relationship to Christ.
    2. As it is the duty of the human body
    to obey every impulse of the head,
    so it is in the church's relationship with Christ
    (l Corinthians 12:12-31).
    B. The New Testament Church Is Christ-Centered.

    1. Christ alone is the Head of the church
    (Colossians 1:18 and Ephesians 1:22-23).
    2. Christ alone is our Advocate with God (l John 2:1).
    3. Christ alone is our Mediator (l Timothy 2:5).
    4. Christ alone is our High Priest Intercessor (Hebrews 7:25)
    5. Christ alone is the church's Foundation (l Corinthians 3:11)
    II. THE HOLY GHOST IS THE ADMINISTRATOR OR MANAGER OF EACH CHURCH.

    A. Each Church Settles All Matters Under the Direction of the Holy Ghost, Without Interference From Other Churches.
    B. The New Testament Plainly Teaches the Work of the Holy Spirit.

    1. He directs and leads (Romans 8:14).
    2. He calls to special service (Acts 13:2-4).
    3. He guides in service (Acts 8:2.6-29).
    4. He equips for service.
    a. He illuminates (l Corinthians 2:12-14).
    b. He instructs (John 16:13-14).
    c. He empowers (l Thessalonians 1:5).
    Note: All of the work of the Holy Ghost is in agreement with the Bible, the Word of God. No deviation from the Word of God is of God.

    III. THE PASTOR IS THE OVERSEER OR SUPERINTENDENT IN CHARGE OF THE WORK.

    Note: Only four (4) general officers are mentioned in the structural organization of the church. These are found in Ephesians 4:11. They are:

    (1) Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, and Pastors who are teachers.
    (2) The work of the Apostles and Prophets has been completed.
    (3) Thus, today, we have only two actively in the church. The Evangelist is what we know as a "Missionary" who goes about extending the work of Jesus, either near or far building churches, and the Pastor-Teacher.
    A. Note the Pastor. In the New Testament, the office of Pastor was described by five words, each signifying a peculiar aspect of the office and a particular duty of the Pastor. These are:

    1. The Pastor is called "Elder" in I Timothy 5:1? and Acts 11:30 - This title refers to the position of the Pastor as leader in the aspect of conducting business.
    2. The Pastor is called "Bishop." This term is used five times in the New Testament.[p. 218]
    a. This title comes from the word episkopos and it means "a superintendent; officer in charge of or the overseer of a working force" (Titus l:7 and I Peter 2:25).
    b. By comparing Scripture with Scripture, it is obvious that both Elder and Bishop designated the same office (l Timothy 3:1-2, Titus l:5-7 and Acbs 20:28-29).
    3. The Pastor is called the Shepherd of a flock in I Peter 5:2-4 because this title implies that the Pastor is to have the same relationship to his congregation as the Shepherd does to the flock.


    4. The Pastor is called the "Preacher" in I Timothy 2:?, II Timothy 1:11 and II Peter 2:5 because the Pastor is to proclaim God's Word, through preaching.
    5. The Pastor is called the "Teacher" in I Corinthians 12:2 and Ephesians 4:11 because the Pastor is to teach the whole counsel of God as the Spirit leads and according to the need He leads.
    Note: The qualifications for Pastor are given in I Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus l:5-8.

    Note: The duties of the Pastor are given in I Peter 5:2-3, Titus 1:9, Acts 6:4, II Timothy 4:2, James 5:l4, and II Timothy 4:5, The duties of the Pastor are numerous and varied.



    6. Note the church's duty to the Pastor:
    a. The church should love and pray for the Pastor,
    b. The church should support him (l Corinthians 9:7-l4 and I Timothy 5:18).
    c. The church should respect him (I Timothy 5:19).
    d. The church should remember him (Hebrews 13:7).
    e. The church should obey him (Hebrews 13:17).
    B. Note the Office of the Deacons. This is the only other office of ordination in the New Testament church.



    1. The origin of Deacons (Acts 6:1-7). At first, the Pastors handled all the affairs in administering relief to the poor and other temporal duties. This became too much of a task, taking too much time from the more needful duties, They were no longer able to pray and study as they should. Seven men were appointed to care for the relief of the poor. These were the first Deacons.
    2. The meaning of the word Deacon is from Diakonos meaning "an attendant or a table waiter, a servant."
    3. The qualifications for a Deacon is not much different than that of the Pastor.


    4. Note the duties of a Deacon (Acts 6:2-3).
    a. The only duties given in the Scriptures for Deacons is found here,
    (1)They were appointed over the task of administering relief.
    (2)They were to make the Pastor's work easier by relieving him.
    b. Other duties have been assumed or given by the various churches, but no other Scriptural duty is found.
    c. All New Testament Deacons were soul winners and great men of God.


    5. Note what Deacons are not.
    a. They are not "church directors, nor a board of directors."
    b. They are not just a figurehead, but to be elected for service or we don't need them.
    c. The office of Deacon is not an honorary office.
    d. The Deacon is not a "church boss" or a "Pastor's boss."
    e. The Deacon is not to be chosen because of social or financial position. The Deacon should be the moat trusted and. Spiritual man in the church.[p. 219]

    Note: "There is not one example in Scripture in support of the 'Board of Deacons.' There is not one verse in Scripture in all the Word of God to indicate that the Deacons of the New Testament churches ever met as a body for anything. And it is absolutely certain that they never met to give instructions to the Pastor. They recognized that he should get his orders from the Lord and deliver them, whether they pleased the Deacons or anybody else. A church should have several men who would qualify for Deacon" (J. H. Melton).

    ======[From Berlin Hisel, Outlines in Systematic Theology, nd.,
    reprinted by Central Baptist Church, Marion, KY. Used with permission; scanned by Jim Duvall.]

    Hisel Ecclesiology Index
    Baptist History Homepage


    ...
    Baptist History Notebook
    By Berlin Hisel
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Baptist History Homepage



    THE HOLY SPIRIT ADMINISTERS TO THE CHURCHES

    By Berlin Hisel

    Introduction: The Holy Spirit Is "the Vicar of Christ."

    Until the Lord Returns,
    the Spirit Has Charge of the Administration of the Churches.

    I. THE HOLY SPIRIT
    GOVERNS THE CHURCH OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    A. The Lord's Church Has But One Head - Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:18).

    1a. Any man who takes that place is where God hasn't put him.
    1b. The Holy Spirit, as the Executive of the Godhead,
    has been sent to govern the churches while on earth.


    B. Notice This Fact By Looking At the Holy Spirit In the Book of Acts.
    1. First, He appoints the human leaders over the churches (Acts 20:28). These men are to be "filled with the Spirit" (Acts 6:3).
    2. Second, He helps a church to decide important cases of doctrine and practice (Acts 15:28).
    3. Third, He selects men as missionaries (Acts 13).
    a. He. sends them out (Acts 13:14).
    b. He determines their field of labor (Acts 16:6-10).
    4. Fourth, He rebukes, warns or encourages the churches. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches" (Revelation 2:17, 29, and 3:13).
    a. In the Scriptures (letters to the churches), the Spirit is carrying on His ministry of governing the churches.
    b. Each letter is authoritative because it is the voice of the Spirit unto the churches.

    II. THE HOLY SPIRIT EQUIPS HIS CHURCHES.

    A. Churches Today Must Function Through Human Instrumentalities.

    1. The Spirit calls men into this body (l Corinthians 12:13, 18).
    2. The Spirit gives the needed spiritual gifts to them to enable them in the work of the Lord (l Corinthians 12:23-24).

    B. The Spirit Gives the Word of God To His Churches.
    1. The Christian is compared to a soldier (Ephesians 6).
    a. Defensive implements are mentioned.
    b. One offensive weapon is mentioned - the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12).
    2. From the Word, churches draw their instruction, creed, interpretation, practices, and all else.

    C. The Spirit Gives the Diversity of Necessary Gifts (Ephesians 4:8, 11-16).
    1. The officers mentioned are gifts from God.
    2. See also I Corinthians 12:10, 28-30.
    3. Without varied gifts, the body would fail and fall apart.

    D. The Spirit Aids the Churches In Their Worship of God.
    1. He assists in prayers, praise, adoration, and thanksgiving (John 4:23-24).
    2. See Ephesians 5:18-20, 6:18; Colossians 3:l6;
    and Romans 8:26.

    ===========

    [Outlines in Systtematic Theology, p. 101.]


    More Baptists On Various Subjects
    Baptist History Homepage
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. .
    . ."
     
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  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    CHAPTER 4-THE GOVERNMENT OF THE CHURCH

    (back to contents)

    There is a Divine model of church polity.

    The Government of the churches of Christ is too important to be left to chance or human opinion. Whatever is left to human discretion in religion, pertains to matters of minor importance, such as the building of meeting houses, the hours of public worship, and the manner and order of divine service. Specific legislation on these points would not be practicable. To be sure there are divine principles to be adhered to in all things, but there are some things for which we have neither divine pattern nor explicit teaching. That there is a divine model of church government may be argued.


    1. From Scriptural Analogy.


    Moses was commanded to make the Tabernacle after the pattern shown him in the mount.

    "And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount"
    (#Ex 25:40);

    "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (#Heb 8:5).

    When the temple was erected, Solomon followed the plan given to him by his father David:

    "Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

    And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

    Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.

    He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:

    Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.

    And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver: Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver: And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight;

    and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

    All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern"
    (#1Ch 28:11-19).

    If it were necessary to make the Tabernacle and Temple according to a divine pattern, then it would seem that the church, which is a habitation of God through the Spirit, should be after a divine pattern.


    2. From New Testament Examples.


    The first New Testament church was the one founded by Christ at Jerusalem. The second was the church at Antioch. Other churches sprang up here and there under missionary endeavor, and all of them were patterned after the church at Jerusalem. These churches had common faith, a common baptism, and a common Lord or Head. Whatever was ordained for one of them was ordained for all.

    "But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches" (#1Co 7:17);

    "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (#1Co 14:33);

    "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God" (#1Co 11:16).

    These churches are to serve as patterns for the churches of all time. The faith or body of divinity has been once delivered, and whatever was ordained for the churches of the first century was likewise meant for the churches of the twentieth century. Otherwise, the churches of the twentieth century would either be without a Bible, as a rule of faith and practice, or else would have a new Bible.

    Since God has not and will not give a new Bible the churches of this century must use the Bible long ago given.


    THREE FORMS OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT


    There are three forms of church government in existence today among the professed followers of Christ. All groups of professing Christians, that is, all denominations may be, generally speaking, classed under these three forms. They are Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Congregational.


    1. The Episcopal form is a graded ministry; a system of big "I, s" and little "U, s." Episcopacy recognizes three orders or ranks of ministers, namely, deacons, priests, and bishops.


    The Roman Catholic Church is a world church, recognizing the bishop of Rome as the supreme head. The Romanist view is based upon the idea that Christ gave to Peter such authority and that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is the successor of Peter.


    The Episcopal form is also represented in national and provincial churches. This means that the members of the church in any province or nation are bound together in national or provincial organizations and that this organization has authority over the local groups. This is the form held by: the Episcopal and Methodist denominations


    2. The Presbyterian form recognizes two classes of elders- preaching elders and ruling elders. The authority in this form of government is in the "Session" which is composed of the pastor and ruling elders of the local congregation. They transact the business of the church, receiving and dismissing members, etc. An appeal, however, can be made to the Presbytery, and from the Presbytery to the Synod, and from the Synod to the General Assembly.


    3. The Congregational or Democratic form of church government is the Scriptural form. This means that each local congregation or assembly is a little democracy under the rule of Christ. "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (#Eph 5:24).

    It is independent of every other congregation. From the divine side, the church of Christ is a monarchy with Christ as its Lord and Head (#Eph 5:24); from its human side it is a democracy,

    "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren...Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ"
    (#Mt 23:8,10).

    An absolute monarchy on its Divine side
    requires for its complement on the human side
    to be an absolute democracy.
     
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