1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Baptists: When did your denomination decide the canon?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NoWelch'sPlease, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    14,045
    Likes Received:
    1,996
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes.
     
  2. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,150
    Likes Received:
    295
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Those who rebelled against the crown were hung drawn and quartered, whether they were Catholics or not.
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,807
    Likes Received:
    1,709
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nothing at all. Luther's musings have not been followed even by the Lutheran churches.
    Nothing can be, but that has not stopped the Church of Rome.
    The Lord Jesus and the Apostles never quote from the Apocrypha, though they certainly has access to it.
    Josephus and the Talmud are clear that The Apocrypha was never part of the Jewish Scriptures.
    Philo, the Jewish philosopher, quotes from all but five O.T. books; never from the Apocrypha.
    None of the writers of the Apocrypha claims divine inspiration or origin.
    Some parts of the Apocrypha contain blatant errors of historical fact; other parts contradict the O.T.
    In AD 170, Melito, leader of the church at Sardis, travelled to Jerusalem to ascertain the true O.T. canon, He came back without the Apocrypha.
    Jerome, who translated the Vulgate, wanted to exclude the Apocrypha. The O.T. that Protestants use today is identical to that upheld by Jerome.
    Cardinal Ximines excluded the Apocrypha shortly before the Council of Trent when it was formally adopted.
    The name 'Apocrypha' means 'hidden things, because it was not read out in early church services because it was not regarded as true Scripture by the early Church.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jewish Palesinian Canon did not include the apocrypha.

    It was also not until Trent 1546 that the RCC ever made a formal and official declaration on the canon and the apocrypha.

    Not a single council you listed is Universal Church Concil per Roman reckoning.

    Early church fathers who only accepted the Jewish Canon and not the apocrypha, Melito of Sardis, Origen, Eusebius, Athanasius, Cyril of Jerusalem , Epiphanius, Hilary of Poitiers, Gregory of Nazianzus, Rufinus and Jerome.

    Josephus doesn't even acknowledge its existence.

    Not to mention Jesus and the apostles didn't use it.

    * In addtion Jesus endorses the Jewish Canon as Scripture (Luke 24:44). The apocrypha is not mentioned by Jesus. If Jesus didn't recognize it as canon, I would say the protestants are in a good postion by agreeing with Him

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
    #44 McCree79, Feb 24, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    7,087
    Likes Received:
    583
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The New Testament books where received by the repective church or individuals or individual to which they where written. Those books were Holy Scripture when they where written.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. NoWelch'sPlease

    NoWelch'sPlease New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2019
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Jesus FULFILLED the prophecy in Wisdom 2:12-22. Which was written between 60 and 100 years before the birth of Jesus. Check it out, if you dare! (Close the blinds so your Baptist neighbors can't see).:Wink

    Rome identified canon in 382, after that it was a general consistency which was upheld. This is one of the things we Catholics have upheld for a long time. Tried and true.

    In the middle part of the third century in a letter to Africanus, Origen said that unlike the Jews, "the Churches use Tobias as scripture..."

    Matthew 7:12, Jesus' Golden Rule, "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15, "What you hate, do not do to others."

    Matthew 24:16, "flee to the mountains" is from 1 Maccabees 2:28.

    Mark 9:48, the description of hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

    Matthew 6:19-20, Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11, "lay up your treasure."

    Mark 4:5,16,17, Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

    Matthew 22:25, Mark 12:20, Luke 20:29, the Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

    Are you referring to Judith and Nebuchadnezzar?
     
  7. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Baptists were the reformers of the reformers. Luther & Co. didn't go far enough away from orthodox belief and suddenly John Smythe thinks he has it all figured out!
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,807
    Likes Received:
    1,709
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The pagan philosopher Socrates said that if ever there was a perfect man, people would put him to death.
    Does that mean that Socrates was divinely inspired?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He was acknowledging the Justin Africanus was using it and the churches in his area. Orgin did not and cautioned against it that same letter.

    "Where you get your “lost and won at play,” and “thrown out unburied on the streets,” I know not, unless it is from Tobias; and Tobias (as also Judith), we ought to notice, the Jews do not use. They are not even found in the Hebrew Apocrypha, as I learned from the Jews themselves"


    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It was not an RCC council. It was a regional north African council. Jerome who was in Rome at the time and was the protege of Pope Damascus, was against recognizing the apocrypha as scripture. If the Pope was his mentor, one could assume the Pope was against it as well.

    The apocrypha was not recognized by the RCC as Scripture until after Luther's rise at Trent.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,807
    Likes Received:
    1,709
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for agreeing that the Lord Jesus never quotes from the Apocrypha.
    When He is quoting Scripture, He says, "It is written......." (e.g. Matthew 4:4); "Have you never read......" (e.g. Matthew 21:42); "Well did Isaiah prophesy......" (Mark 7:6); "It is written in the Prophets......" (John 6:45); "Is it not written in your law?" (John 10:34) or some such thing. He never quotes from the Apocrypha. That He may well have known of the Apocrypha is undoubtedly true, but that fact does not mean that He thought it was Scripture. I mentioned some lines from Simon and Garfunkel in a sermon yesterday; that doesn't mean I thought they were inspired.
     
  12. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus never recognized that he filled that literature.

    "Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

    He did however say he fulfilled OT Jewish Scripture. Since Wisdom was out before Jesus' earthly ministry, why didn't he claim he fulfilled it as well? The answer is because it is not Scripture.


    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. NoWelch'sPlease

    NoWelch'sPlease New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2019
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I think you mean Julius Africanus. So if this is true, then why in his Hexapla edition of the Old Testament are all of the apocryphal, (deuterocanonical) books present? He even cites 2 Maccabees 7:28 and Wisdom 18:24 as, "holy Scripture".

    Why do you require this of Jesus? Often, what I see among Protestants is this demand, or want of a clear picture, as if to erase the doubt. For example, in order to understand the perpetual virginity of Mary, you require a book to exist in the New Testament, written by Jesus, called, The Book of Mary.


    According to whom?

    Are you saying Jerome, or the Pope thought it was their job to decide canon? They would have known that only the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, will decide canon.

    Nonsense, the main objective of Trent was to make clear Catholic doctrine and answer the heresies of the Protestants.

    Did he quote from Song of Songs? And yet, isn't that scripture?
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    6,807
    Likes Received:
    1,709
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Our Lord quotes from the Hebrew Scriptures, of which the Song of Songs is part, and clearly regards them as the word of God.
    He does not quote from any book of the Apocrypha.
     
  15. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes...."Julius"...my cellphone auto corrected me.

    From Origen:
    "It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down....
    And outside of these there are the Maccabees, which are entitled Sarbeth Sabanaiel" Has quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History.

    He was very clear in his rejection of Maccabees as Scripture. I cannot find the Orgien quote you refer to, but he has likely been taken out of context like you did with his letter to Julius Africanus

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
  16. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist


    Why would Jesus not mention it? He mentioned the Jewish scripture as a whole, which he fulfilled.

    Jesus would not be able to write such a book, nor thr apostles since Mary had other children.


    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

     
  17. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am saying Rome did not accept the Apocrypha as Scripture at Hippo. That was not a Universal RCC council. It was not until Trent that the RCC accepted it. History shows this clearly. Read up on Trent and Hippo



    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
  18. NoWelch'sPlease

    NoWelch'sPlease New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2019
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    In whose opinion? According to you? What bothers me is this, oh, and first, I will admit I really walked into it with the whole, "He never quoted the apocrypha" ordeal. Which, I am willing to let go even though I see a huge, and undeniable link, (which, for some reason, you are willing to ignore, or are not willing to recognize because a Catholic is pointing it out) between the verses I showed you from the apocrypha and the New Testament.

    That being said, I still do not understand why Baptists seem to think their Bible is not the direct product of a rogue, and at the very least, schismatic, man who arrogantly decided for himself, when he had time between self flagellation, (while clearly not being guided by the Holy Spirit) which books make up the canon.

    For example, the reply I received in post #41 was, "Yes." This was from an "administrator", no less, whatever that means on this forum. This answer tells me nothing.
     
    #58 NoWelch'sPlease, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  19. NoWelch'sPlease

    NoWelch'sPlease New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2019
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Don't even get me started about this. It is wholly irreverent to assume Mary had another child, or children, besides Jesus. The level of ignorance on your part, sir, is unconscionable.

    Imagine, if you will, for example, Joseph, a man who understands without a doubt that Mary is a consecrated virgin; he knows she is the mother of Jesus. Imagine, as the man you are, and I am a decent man as well, imagine Joseph being in a one room house late at night with young, beautiful Mary and Jesus, the savior of all humanity sleeping nearby.

    Do you really think he would try to "get busy" with her? He was her protector.
     
    #59 NoWelch'sPlease, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  20. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    292
    Faith:
    Baptist
    She was his wife. Sex is in no way sinful or shameful within the confines of a heterosexual marriage. It is beautiful gift from God. Your claim she is a perpetual virgin is is unfounded and contradicted by scripture.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
Loading...