Before we came to the end of our previous discussion we never settled what the Creed meant saying “Begotten not made”. A few philosophies were discussed of how this might be. Those discussed fall into the following categories:
Ebionism: One Divine essence, assuming a human nature. It errs viewing Jesus being merely the nature of a just man while denying his Divinity altogether.
Docetism: One Divine essence, the nature of a phantom. Koine Greek means word that means specter or phantom. A concept widely believed by the first and second century Gnostic. Christ was a specter only having the appearance of a man.
Arianist: One person, one hypostasis, two natures, one of which is servant to the other. This heresy was pretty simple, mimicking Christianity. It proposes that Jesus Christ to be One Divine Person, One Divine hypostasis, however of the tow natures, Divine and human, only the Divine functioned. Thus the human nature of man was completely and wholly over written by the nature of God; which explains its activeness to the late third through fifth century Christian the Arians didn’t need to deal with the humanity of Christ.
Nestorians: One person, two hypostases, one divine and human, two natures divine and human one prominent the other subservient. Nestorius taught that Christ had two essences, somehow God and man weren’t joined, rather separate. “Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation.” I think of the hypostasis as the essence of an individual. Consequently, Nestorius thought of Jesus Christ not as a single person rather two persons, it’s not quite the same as the famed ‘two tootsie rolls wrapped into one’ but it can be imagined much the same way. In this union however, the human person was subservient to the Divine Person. Consequently, you might say that human part of the union didn’t have a will of its own.
Apollinarianism: One person, one Divine hypostasis, one Divine will in two natures. Thus, according to this philosophy Jesus Christ is One Person, One Divine Essence, and One Divine Will with two natures. The human nature is adopted by the Divine whose will governs the two natures, God and man. This is the schizoid Christ who has only one soul yet two natures.
Monophysites: One person, one divine hypostasis, one divine nature as the symbol of man. Monophysites believe that Christ is One Divine Person with One Divine Nature with man being the symbol of that nature in Jesus Christ. The depth of this philosophy is God takes up the appearance of a man, looks and acts as a man, yet he is really and simply God. In essence, the antithesis of Nestorianism, the human appearance of Jesus Christ is the divine God putting on humanity as if it were a suit of clothes. The contrast between Nestorianism and Monphysitism is stark:
Nestorians: One person, two hypostases, two natures.
Monophysites: One person, one hypostasis, one nature.
Christianity: One divine person, one divine hypostasis, two natures. The incarnation is unique joining of the Divine nature with the nature of man. The will of God and the will of Jesus Christ were separate yet of one spirit forming the essence of One Divine Person.
The Christian Creed declares Jesus Christ was begotten not made for a reason. Except one, Mary, according to God’s plan is Immaculate. We hold here to be a creature just as you and I are and in need of Salvation. To keep this one tenet of faith we will find Mary’s salvation came from a singular gift of salvific grace at conception. By immaculate we mean she was preserved from sin, both original sin and actual sin.
Subsequently we find holding to the Marian doctrines crucial to the real vision of Christ if one calls himself “Christian” keeping his confessed creed of beliefs. I ask again, was Jesus Christ begotten or made?
JoeT
Begotten or Made and Mary's role in your Salvation
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JoeT, Nov 22, 2019.
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Particular Well-Known Member
Fully human, fully God.
Mary was ordained by God to care for Jesus from conception until he entered his ministry.
As for all the "isms", I couldn't care less.
There are no "Marian doctrines." Those are mythical creations of a reprobate church.
Mary is remembered, not because she was something extraordinary, but precisely because she was so ordinary. God graciously chose an ordinary young girl and used her for His glory. If God chose such an ordinary person, he may choose any person to accomplish His perfect will. -
Scarlett O. ModeratorModerator
All I can say with assurance is that there are going be countless people who split hell wide open and burn for an eternity because their "faith" is in Mary and not Jesus Christ.
Mary has absolutely NOTHING to do with my salvation. She should be appreciated for her physically bearing Christ into the world.
This grieves me more than you will know. -
Mary has everything to do with your salvation. Have you read the first chapter of St. Luke's Gospel? Mary gave flesh to the Second Person of the Trinity, the same flesh He used to redeem you. -
Scarlett O. ModeratorModerator
Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ did not save me. Not in any way, shape, or form. She was a sinner, like me. She found favor with God and he used her to bring Jesus to the world. That. Is. All. She. Did.
Tell me, do you believe the Fatima "messages" from "Mary"? Everything in the rosary about Mary? -
Particular Well-Known Member
Note, however, that no Apostle or writer of the Bible ever spoke of a "Marian doctrine." Such talk lowers God and lifts up Mary. My how Mary would rebuke you.
Mary hosted the Savior that was knit in her womb. She never gave flesh to anything. God gave flesh to God. Mary humbly carried God as he grew to birth in Bethlehem. -
Some ascetics came from the Jewish sect of Pharisees; you might say the Pharisees were the Puritans of the Old Testament Law. Participation in ascetic communities often included both men and women. It was a unique lifestyle marked by poverty, chastity, labor, solitude, and prayer. St. Joseph had lived a Holy life, a righteous life, “an ordinary sort of man on whom God relied to do great things,” [Saint Josemaria Escriva.] [Pope John Paul II].
The pseudepigraphic work, The Gospel of James is a window into early Church’s view of Mary’s perpetual virginity. We should add to our understanding the fact that St. Jerome and St. Augustine understood the Blessed Virgin Mary as an ascetic who took a vow of chastity. The angel Gabriel came to a virgin of the house of David, a Temple Virgin, called Mary [Cf. Luke 1:26-27]. Her statement here isn’t the innocent little country girl who plays the naïve little girl. Mary is explaining that she has taken vows of chastity; how does a chaste woman bear a child without knowing a man?
Common among ascetic Jewish women was a vow of chastity in the Temple at Jerusalem or in the synagogue. The Blessed Mary literally saw herself as the handmaiden of the Lord. [Cf. Ephesians 5:31-32]. Being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit Mary became intimately joined to God fulfilling her vowed to join God by receiving the Incarnate Word within her. The Blessed Mary literally encompassed the Word of God.
Scripturally an ascetic chastity is usually implied when we read "a just man.” (Cf. Matt 1:19). Therefore for the Blessed Mary as well as St. Joseph together would have remained chaste to consider otherwise makes the Blessed Mary and Joseph participants in an adulterous triangle. But since St. Joseph was righteous he would never had an intimate relationship with Mary, to have done so would result in the same fate as Oza.
The virgin has illustrious models to follow: the five wise virgins of Gospel of Matthew, Mary, and the famous Thecla, heroine of the Apocryphal Acts of Paul. Let’s restate the obvious, if the Blessed Mary wasn’t immaculate then Christ was born by woman in a state other than a New Eve and the result would be Christ being born with the stain of Adam’s sin, a scriptural absurdity. If the Blessed Ever Virgin Mary wasn't immaculate then Christ was suckled by the unclean sinner – God forbid. If the Blessed Virgin Mary was anything less than a new Eve (free from the stain of sin) Christ’s human nature would inherit original sin. The flesh of Christ was given to Him by Mary, it is the mother's flesh any infant is born with; as such Christ would be born of carnal sin we arrive at another absurdity.
"Thy cheeks are beautiful as the turtledove's, thy neck as jewels."JoeT
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I find most Protestants are shocked to learn the New Testament is replete with hellenistic philosophy.
"Who do men say that I am?" The most important question ever asked is unanswerable apart from an understanding of the Incarnation.
She not only found favor with God, she was prophesied throughout the Old Testament. She gave Christ His human nature which He used to redeem you.
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The Jewish and Hellenistic worlds converged at the Incarnation. Perhaps you believe this to simply be another great coincidence?
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Particular Well-Known Member
It seems you do not have an even rudimentary understanding of God's Supremacy. Read your Bible and see what it means when God speaks and it happens. -
1 Cor 15:33 ---> Quotes Menander's Thais to teach the faithful at Corinth
Titus 1:12 ---> Quotes Epimenides' De oraculis to support his own instruction to his young bishop, Titus
Acts 17:28 ---> Quotes Epimenides' Cretica and Aratus' Phenomena, in which both poets address Zeus and St. Paul in turn quotes and affirms it to the Athenians.
Acts 26:14 ---> When the Apostle describes his conversion experience, he has our Blessed Lord quoting the Greek pagan poet Euripides' play, Bacchae, to him
In addition to St. Paul's use of pagan philosophy, we can also point to the use of the word Logos by the Beloved Apostle. This pagan / Hellenistic philosophical word formed the basis for the Christian understanding of the Trinity. -
Particular Well-Known Member
There is one influence that matters. God wrote through his Prophets and Apostles.
It is disappointing that you have such a low view of God. -
Have you removed those passages referencing pagan philosophers from your Bible? -
Particular Well-Known Member
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Do you think it is just a coincidence the New Testament was written in Greek? The Hebrew and Hellenistic worlds converged with the Incarnation of the Son of God, expressed most beautifully by St. John's description of the Son as the Logos. It is a fact of history that Christianity, from its very beginning, synthesized Hellenism with revelation in light of the coming of Christ. It is not a coincidence that the faith of the Church came into contact and was born in the Hellenistic world. -
Particular Well-Known Member
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Particular Well-Known Member
The important point is that God chose to reveal himself. You are pointing at insignificance and glorying in it while ignoring the God of Creation. -
Mary did nothing special except bear Jesus. Otherwise, she was an ordinary Jewish housewife, who bore at least 6 other children by the usual conception method. She died & went to paradise where her soul is today, not seeing (or caring) what goes on here.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
To turn Mary into an idol is exceedingly sinful
There is only One Mediator..
1tim2:5
Mary is not Deity.
Mary cannot hear and answer prayer.
While It is good to see RC friends trying to study, it would be better to see them stay only in the scriptures.
That church was corrupted early on, and has had unregenerate leadership starting with most of the ECF, and the list of unsaved Popes.
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