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Featured Being Ignorant of God's Righteousness

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Nov 29, 2022.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Romans 10:1-4)

    I hear religious people say all the time: "We aren't qualified to do it, nor should we ever judge whether or not someone is lost" - REALLY? Answer me this question: If you don't make a judgment as to whether one is LOST or not, with WHOM would you ever share the Gospel? Matter of fact, just sharing the Gospel with someone is a judgment in and of itself, showing that you think that they are lost. Paul makes a judgment in the above verse of the spiritual condition of his fleshly brethren - "That they might be saved". If he wants them saved, the IMPLICATION is that at this time they are lost. But the Spirit also gives us the standard of all proper judgment concerning SAVED OR LOST - "But not according to KNOWLEDGE". The Jews were religious and zealous for God. So zealous for their own idea of God's glory, they killed God's Christ. What "KNOWLEDGE" was lacking in these Jews, and what "KNOWLEDGE" is always absent in those that are lost? "For they BEING IGNORANT OF GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS ". Please pay careful attention: ANY SINNER who is "ignorant of God's righteousness" IS LOST, no matter how moral, sincere, dedicated, or religious they might be. But the Spirit continues by telling us HOW we can know one is "ignorant of God's righteousness". They will always be "GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This isn't merely a little doctrinal difference, but Scriptural truths of eternal importance.

    - Richard Warmack, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Ruston, Louisiana
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    With God's holiness in mind, all are in God's presence in everything we do and say, ". . . For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; . . ." [Acts of the Apostles 17:28]
     
    #2 37818, Nov 29, 2022
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  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Man can not establish their own righteousness but we are seen as righteous by God when we are in Christ Jesus. [Romans 3:21-22] Just as Abraham was accounted as righteous not for his works but because of his faith. [Romans 4:3] Those that trust in Christ Jesus will now be accounted as righteous [2 Corinthians 5:21]

    The bible is clear that the only way to the Father is through Christ Jesus [John 14:6] and that is by believing the gospel message [Ephesians 1:13]

    So while man can not become righteous by our their works we can become righteous by faith in our risen Lord and savior Christ Jesus.
     
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  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    God's elect are made righteous. They don't become righteous. Just as Christ was made to be sin for God's elect. He didn't become sin or a sinner. It is all by imputation(to charge to or to credit to).

    There are only two types of people - filthy sinners who are lost and filthy sinners who are saved by God's grace. After God regenerated me and gave me a new heart, I am still in a fleshly body that lusts after and desires to sin mightily(see Romans 7:14-25)

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

    (emphasis mine)
     
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  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Hebrews 11 -
    "By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he demonstrated his righteousness". He was declared/made righteous first by grace alone, and then his righteous sacrifice showed it. He didn't become righteous by his sacrifice, but the opposite. Many get that order wrong, bringing works (even good works in man's eye) into salvation.
     
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  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    For people that are supposed to have some basic understanding of language both you and Bob do seem to miss a lot or perhaps it is just your calvinism coming through in that you have to disagree with anyone that does not think like you.

    Do you not understand that when Christ Jesus makes someone righteous because of their faith/trust in Him they become righteous. Is that a concept that you and Bob do not grasp?

    What do these words mean to you
    "So while man can not become righteous by our their works we can become righteous by faith in our risen Lord and savior Christ Jesus."
     
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    As Heb 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Abel trusted in the God of His parents and was made/declared righteous. He became righteous because of his faith.
    Works will not save anyone so it is a good thing that faith is not a work.
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    You say that you believed, right? So you are also saying that when you believed, you didn't actually do so?
     
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Never fear child Of God... The problem on here is brethren confuse timely Salvation with eternal... The following is eternal... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
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  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    What are you trying to say? One can not actually believe and not believe at the same time.

    You seem to be under the delusion that faith is a work. But the bible is clear that faith is not so why do you persist in thinking that?

    Faith is not a work as the bible points out:
    Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

    Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

    Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

    Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
     
    #10 Silverhair, Nov 30, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I am glad I don’t have to be Arminian nor Calvinist to believe in salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. To believe in the eternal security of the believer. To believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and believe what the Bible says, “That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
    I trusted in the finished work of Christ Jesus long before I heard of either the Arminian or Calvinist view.
     
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  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The Bible teaches that salvation is monergistic - it is all of God. You deny the Bible teaching and claim that salvation is synergistic - it is a cooperative effort of God and of man.
     
  13. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Right there you quoted a verse that teaches that faith is the gift of God.

    Those other verses talk about not being saved by the works of the Law of Moses. Conditionalists just add another item(s) for the sinner to accomplish - believe and/or repent and/or be baptized, etc. Then they claim they are not working, yet they are working and teach others in their false ways. They are, at heart, Neonomians.
     
  14. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    What makes this confusing is that teachers of monergistic salvation tend to teach a type of evaluation where you can evaluate your own faith to see if it is real and then I suppose correct your errors if found. Go to the Monergism web site, plug in saving faith and immediately you get Ryle and Pink showing you how to evaluate whether your faith is saving faith. There is a difference between these types of teachings and the way Ken explains it. These guys are not Neonomians but they are different than some other Calvinists. Jonathan Edwards, in his sermon on God's sovereignty in mans salvation even says that God condescends to man and sets up covenants where he puts up faith as a condition of salvation for mans benefit. I'm not knocking Ken here because I think his brand of Calvinism may be the purest form but it is different from some of the other guys.
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Salvation is the gift of God that we receive because we believe in other words through faith.

    The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one. A. Barnes

    Paul arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us.

    Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. Calvins Complete Commentary Eph 2:8
     
    #15 Silverhair, Nov 30, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    God saves as only He can save but He saves those that believe. You are denying clear scripture.

    Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Note the order Paul describes here.
    1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
    2) They call because they believe.
    3) They believe because they heard.
    4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
    Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation.

    What Paul says here is clear. The Gospel is preached, people hear it, believe it, call on God and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Reformed-Calvinist scenario.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
     
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that. :Biggrin

    But as I wish I could somehow effectively communicate, I am not a Calvinist, I am not Reformed. Since we humans are bound and determined to use labels, I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist. I doubt that many, if any, truly Calvinistic or Reformed churches would have me as a member in good standing. In fact, someone who has become a good friend over about the past year and a half(and a Dallas Cowboys fan, also :) ) was going to be disciplined(before he left that church) by one of those Calvinistic or Reformed-type churches because he believed in salvation by God's sovereign grace.

    From what I have ascertained, it appears that there are Calvinistic/Reformed churches that may teach that salvation is monergistic but afterward they go heavy into works to "prove" that one has been saved, to "evaluate" themselves. If God "evaluates" me, even now after being saved, based on me, then I am doomed. I thank God that he "evaluates" me as He does His Son - that I am perfect because Christ is perfect, and God has placed me in Him and clothed me with His perfect righteousness.
     
    #17 KenH, Nov 30, 2022
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  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    So you agree that faith is a gift since you state that "nothing connected with it is our own"?
     
  19. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I try to avoid looking at anything in me or done by me or thought by me for any kind of confirmation or evaluation. I want to look to Christ alone. He fulfilled all of the law's demands perfectly on my behalf. He completely paid my sin debt and bore the complete punishment for it. God gave me eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart to understand my totally lost condition and that I could never, ever produce a perfect righteousness and that I had to look for a perfect righteousness outside of myself to be justified in God's sight. And God gave me the power and the willingness, the want to, to look only to Christ as the Lord my Righteousness - to look and live.

    Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.
     
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  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Amazing how you miss " and if we bring nothing but faith," and completely ignore the rest of the post. You are so desperate to hold onto your view that you twist everything to fit that philosophy. That is really sad Ken. You don't even trust what Calvin or other calvinists' say.

    Ken you do realize that you are just proving that your view has no merit as you have to lie by omission in your posts. This is what you will not accept
    "The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God?
    The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us." Calvins Complete Commentary Eph 2:8

    Ken you should be ashamed of yourself, you call yourself a Christian and yet you see nothing wrong with what you do. You need to repent of your sinful actions.
     
    #20 Silverhair, Nov 30, 2022
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