What one is asked to accept is this poster sees no difference between his "saving faith" and my "worthless filthy rag faith."
Then this poster asks you to accept his disinformation. What we have here is not a failure to communicate, but his willingness to obfuscate.
Between two Robbers...
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 7, 2021.
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Over and over I have cited Romans 4:23-25, yet Tsalagi claims this passage does not say God credits our faith, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say we are chosen through or by reason of "faith in the truth."
When does God credit our faith as righteousness, at the point of salvation or before we are placed into Christ? Before, because our "credited as righteousness faith" is the reason for our election to salvation. Romans 5:2 -
2) Hebrews 11 does say the OT saints (which includes Abraham) had to wait to be made perfect.
3) Who are made perfect? The righteous are made perfect. Hebrews 12:23
4) How are individuals made righteous?
1Co 1:30
But by His [God's] doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
Folks, the "erroneous notion" is that Abraham did not obtain approval by faith, and that approval resulted in Abraham being made perfect, which occurred after Christ died, and Abraham was put into Christ spiritually where he became the "righteous made perfect." -
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Tsalagi thinks God chooses individuals for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth He chose not to credit as righteousness. I kid you not.
He denies the same individuals are the antecedent of "our" in Romans 4:24 and Romans 4:25. I kid you not.
Did anyone say "saving faith" and "living faith" are the same thing? Nope - so obfuscation on display.
Has this naysayer made any "this is what I believe" statements, or has he just said "taint so, or I never said that,"
Have I not provided the quotes for my statements? Yes. But what about 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The naysayer said God did not choose individuals for salvation through or by reason of "credited as righteousness" faith. Thus the naysayer said of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, God chose individuals for salvation through or by reason of "uncredited as righteousness" faith.
Denial based on personal incredulity is not proof. -
You have your reward. Shalom. -
Both are unbiblical false doctrines and should be discarded based on a study of God's word.
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. -
George Antonios Well-Known Member
It's just that Christ was teaching before the cross, and therefore under the Old Testament (Heb.9), under the law, and under the law, salvation was by faith and works; unlike in the post-cross church age when salvation is NOW by grace alone without works. As usual, dispensationalism solves these "problems". -
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Two fallacies are commonly found around the cross of Christ, on the one hand, Easy Believism and the claim it is easy to find the narrow way that leads to life, and on the other hand, Impossible Believism and the claim the lost cannot find the narrow way that leads to life.
Both are unbiblical false doctrines and should be discarded based on a study of God's word.
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
One path leads to "destruction" which is what happens to those who do not find "eternal life." Thus this passage does indeed teach few find eternal life and rest take the path to destruction.
Consider Romans 3:25, Romans 3:30, Romans 3:31, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 2:8. To be saved through faith requires that faith (as credited to us by God as righteousness) provided the reason or basis for God's gracious action. Romans 5:2
The thieves have been caught, and tried, and found guilty by reason of scripture, Easy believism is unbiblical false doctrine, and Impossible Believism is unbiblical false doctrine.
Many seek and do not find, thus not "Easy" but there are a few that find, thus not "Impossible." -
George Antonios Well-Known Member
The scriptures abound to that effect, as Paul and Moses both summarized the law as follows:
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. -
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. [Matthew 11:25].
Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 18:3-4].
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Romans 10:8-9].
So easy a child can do it. -
"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions... if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." [Galatians 3:19, 21]
Obedience under the law resulted in physical life and blessing, not soul salvation. Ezekiel 18 makes this clear. -
George Antonios Well-Known Member
The word soul or souls shows up 6 times in that chapter:
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Now compare the following 3 verses which speak of the soul dying.:
It is the soul that lives or die. God did not say “the flesh”, or “the man”, or “the body”. To be just, we must point-out that in the O.T., before the spiritual circumcision made possible by the resurrection of Christ, the soul and the body were fused, so that the death of a soul of a living man was also the death of his body. But it was nevertheless a death of the soul as well. This is not the threat of bodily death only, it is the threat of soulish death as well. This is confirmed by the fact that Ezekiel said that that soul would die in his sin (3:20, 24; 18:24) and in his iniquity (3:18, 19; 18:18, 26) and in his trespass (18:24), and Paul described lost souls as dead in trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1).
If God had been addressing the Jews concerning physical death and life exclusively, why did he conclude the chapter with make you a new heart and a new spirit (v.31)?! Those are expressions of salvation of one’s soul, not body, as he had been saying all along. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of dying in one’s sins as a damnation of the soul (John 8:21, 24). There it is a result of unbelief, but here it is a result of works. A total of 17 works [including hath taken off his hand from the poor (v.17)] are listed in the passage and they are called duties in v.11.
No one can argue that in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live (v.22) is exclusively a reference to a long and good physical life on earth and not a reference to salvation as well: Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Christ’s words thou shalt live (v.28) is a direct answer concerning obtaining eternal life (v.25); and that’s the salvation of one’s soul! Christ himself told the lawyer that his obtaining eternal life was dependent on what the lawyer would do (v.28)!
Ezekiel 18:22 above is a quasi-replica of Leviticus 18:5 and Paul takes Leviticus 18:5 – and therefore Ezekiel 18:22 – as a doctrine to be set in opposition to New Testament salvation by faith!
You’ve seen how Ezekiel 18 opposes Pauline doctrine, but see now how it matches Jacobine [James’] doctrine:
Since Paul differs from Ezekiel, and Ezekiel matches James, we now expect Pauline doctrine to be in opposition to Jacobine doctrine, and indeed it is:
Moreover, if this promise of life were merely one of a long physical life on earth – as opposed to a promise of salvation – then the reference to the commandment to honour one’s parents is conspicuously absent, (which is the first commandment with promise ; ) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth (Eph.6:2). Certainly the fifth commandment is included within hath walked in my statutes (v.9) but just as certainly God had a reason for specifying a sin such as not coming near to a menstruous woman (v.6) yet not the commandment to honour one’s father and mother; that reason being that the warning extended beyond the mere loss of long bodily life on the earth – it was one of eternal judgment on the soul.
Salvation by grace through faith without the works of the law is only a true doctrine during the church age. Under the law, and in the tribulation, and in the millennial kingdom, salvation was and will again be by faith and works. -
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