When did God obtain knowledge, and where did he get knowledge that he did not already know?
Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Mar 5, 2011.
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Reply to Jarthur 001
Peter tells us that Christ was known as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. Therefore God's foreknowledge of His redemption plan is from before the foundation of the world.
Scripture tells us God determined (predetermined) His plan so sometime in eternity God determined what He would do. If God always knew, then He never determined. So I go with scripture, rather than the conjecture of men. -
God does not change. For God to know something means he has always known it. For God to choose someone means he has always chosen that person. For God to choose someone during that person's lifetime would mean that there was a time when he had not yet chosen that person--thus, would represent a change in God.
For him to not to foreknow someone, then at some point to foreknow him, would represent a change in God.
God's determinate plan (Acts 2:23) has always been his determinate plan, and there never was a time when he didn't have one. -
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Reply to Jbh28,
If and when you recant and admit my view does not use through sanctification and faith as an independent clause, as you charged, and therefore show some sign of a grasp of grammar, we can continue. Otherwise I have nothing to say.
What does the phrase for salvation do in the sentence? Does it provide the purpose of God's choice or something else?
What does from the beginning (or as first-fruits) do in the sentence? Does it provide the time of the choice or something else.
What does through sanctification by the Spirit do in the sentence? Does it provide the means used in the choice or something else.
What does through faith in the truth do in the sentence? Does it provide the means used as the basis of the choice or something else?
If I was going to rewrite the sentence per my understanding I would say
(1) God
(2) chose you
(3) from the beginning or as first fruits
(4) through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth
(5) for salvation.
The sanctification by the Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit placing us spiritually into Christ, and through faith in the truth refers to God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Bottom line, God is the only actor and those chosen are the receivers. -
Reply to all
My views are based on my understanding of specific scriptures, not man made theories concerning the nature of God. God's word says He determined, and words have meaning. You can say He could not have determined because He always knew till the cows come home, you have no scripture to support your completely baseless conjecture. Scripture is my only source of authority, not the conjecture of men. -
Again, adverbs answer HOW, WHEN, OR WHERE and never modify nouns or pronouns. If you don't believe me, look it up in any rules of grammar book (which I did). -
so, now are you agreeing with me or did I misunderstand you? You seem to be understanding now that "sanctification by the Spirit" refers to salvation and faith in the truth as well. -
Again, adverbs answer HOW, WHEN, OR WHERE and never modify nouns or pronouns. If you don't believe me, look it up in any rules of grammar book (which I did).[/QUOTE]
go look it up again. We are talking about a preposition which can be BOTH adverbial and adjective. -
I did look it up, and "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" is an ADVERBIAL phrase because it answers HOW something occured. If you don't like that, take it up with the scholars. If a word tells HOW something happened, it is an adverb.
This is why I always believed this phrase was pointing to the word chosen, but I graduated High School 40 years ago and you begin to forget the rules. So I went to several online sites that show the rules of grammar and did some refreshing. They agreed with me and Van, and disagree with you. Look for yourself. -
I did look it up, and a phrase or group of words that answers HOW something occured is an adverbial phrase and cannot modify a noun. And salvation in this verse is a noun. If you don't like this, take it up with the scholars who wrote the rules of grammar. You simply will not admit when you are in error. -
Reply to Winman
Thanks, I am not up to debating grammar with
someone who thinks I think "for salvation" is an independent clause in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. I think the only reason someone would deny the obvious, that through sanctification and faith is an adverbial clause modifying the verb is to support a presupposition. Each and every commentator that made that argument - through sanctification and faith modifies salvation - was a Calvinist. -
By the way, this same rule of grammar also refutes their erroneous interpretation of Eph 2:8. -
Being that you really did not address my 1st post, it is my guess that you overlooked it.
1st allow me to repost what I asked you...
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Now it is my guess you was replying to this...
When did God obtain knowledge, and where did he get knowledge that he did not already know?Click to expand...
You said he OBTAINED IT. When??
Or another way to look at it...
WHEN DID HE NOT KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS NOW??????
All you have said is that God knew before he made. Again by you saying he OBTAINED KNOWLEDGE means he did not have something at some point so he had to OBTAIN IT.
1) When did he OBTAIN IT?
2) Who gave him that KNOWLEDGE that he didn't have?
Understand? -
Winman said: ↑go look it up again. We are talking about a preposition which can be BOTH adverbial and adjective.
I did look it up, and "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" is an ADVERBIAL phrase because it answers HOW something occured. If you don't like that, take it up with the scholars. If a word tells HOW something happened, it is an adverb.
This is why I always believed this phrase was pointing to the word chosen, but I graduated High School 40 years ago and you begin to forget the rules. So I went to several online sites that show the rules of grammar and did some refreshing. They agreed with me and Van, and disagree with you. Look for yourself.Click to expand...
" through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"1) what does sanctification mean?
2) Who does the sanctifying?
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
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Van said: ↑Thanks, I am not up to debating grammar with
someone who thinks I think "for salvation" is an independent clause in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. I think the only reason someone would deny the obvious, that through sanctification and faith is an adverbial clause modifying the verb is to support a presupposition. Each and every commentator that made that argument - through sanctification and faith modifies salvation - was a Calvinist.Click to expand...
Of which winman, I'll be looking at what you posted in a bit. -
Jarthur001 said: ↑Winman,
" through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"1) what does sanctification mean?
2) Who does the sanctifying?
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
Click to expand...
I believe we become elect or chosen through belief in the truth. That is man's part or duty. The sanctification through the Spirit is God's part. God's part comes FIRST.
You are so used to your way of thinking, I truly wonder sometimes if a Calvinist can even grasp how a non-Cal understands.
You see, I am no Pelagian, I do not believe any man could possibly be saved if God did not FIRST reveal himself and his Son through his word. This is that sanctification of the Spirit. Jesus said his words were spirit and life. He also said sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth. God's word convicts a man of his sin and lost state, but it also reveals the remedy which is faith or trust in Jesus who died for our sins.
So, for a man to be saved he must first hear the word of God. Hearing the word of God enables a man to believe (how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?).
So, election to me means that God determined to choose those who both hear his word (sanctification of the Spirit) and belief of the truth. -
You see, I am no Pelagian,Click to expand...
I do not believe any man could possibly be saved if God did not FIRST reveal himself and his Son through his word. This is that sanctification of the Spirit.Click to expand...
I want to make sure I understand you here.
Are you saying God revealing himself is sanctification?
Let me repost...
The verse you have been quoting says this...
" through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"Click to expand...
1) What does sanctification mean? ......Your saying "revealing himself is sanctification"????
2) Who does the sanctifying?..........Your answer...GOD
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
Did you answer 3? If so, please give more detail.
Thanks...James -
Jarthur001 said: ↑This is another subject. If your not Pelagian you have changed your views on OS.
Wait...
I want to make sure I understand you here.
Are you saying God revealing himself is sanctification?
Let me repost...
The verse you have been quoting says this...
1) What does sanctification mean? ......Your saying "revealing himself is sanctification"????
2) Who does the sanctifying?..........Your answer...GOD
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
Did you answer 3? If so, please give more detail.
Thanks...JamesClick to expand...
I will say this though, the early church fathers before Augustine did not believe in OS. Study and see for yourself. -
Winman said: ↑go look it up again. We are talking about a preposition which can be BOTH adverbial and adjective.
I did look it up, and a phrase or group of words that answers HOW something occured is an adverbial phrase and cannot modify a noun. And salvation in this verse is a noun. If you don't like this, take it up with the scholars who wrote the rules of grammar. You simply will not admit when you are in error.Click to expand...
Now, what kind of salvation is being spoken of here? It's salvation that is through sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth.
Now, as I think about this some, we could look at it another way. How has God chosen to save you? Not how did God choose us, but how has he chosen to save us? That is by "sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth."
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