In Acts 25:11 when the apostle Paul stood before Festus he said "if I be an offender or have done anything worthy of death" wasn't he acknowledging that there were offences that were worthy of capital punishment. This certainly goes along with O.T. teaching on capital punishment.In the O.T. God demanded murders, witches, and such like be put to death. No where in the N. T. do I find this countermanded. I don't think Jesus' one act with the women caught in adultry is suffient reason to reject capital punishment. We really don't know His reason for allowing her to go free but if He were going to change an O.T. law I would think he would give us more direct or clearer instruction as He did with other laws. Also, in Acts 13:4 Paul refers to government as "the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Doesn't it seem that Paul is saying governments are set up of God to inflict these kinds of punishment on wrong doers?
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Biblical Defense of Pacifism/Self-Defense
- Thread starter Dr. Bob
- Start date
Usually orthodox branches of Christianity (like the Mennisten) that have embraced pacifism also fanatically embrace neutrality when it comes to politics. They distance themselves from the government leaving violence behind is in a sense part of that.
Dr. Bob
What go2church quoted looks like the Roman Catholic just war doctrine to me, not the general conventions of warfare adopted by Western countries in the 19th century for conflicts (between themselves) you referred to.
Dr. Bob
What go2church quoted looks like the Roman Catholic just war doctrine to me, not the general conventions of warfare adopted by Western countries in the 19th century for conflicts (between themselves) you referred to.
I don't know why God would give to government a power that ultimately could be harmful to his children? Jesus said those words knowing full well he was going to die, Paul wrote those words knowing full well that Christians would die because of their beliefs. Just because something is possible, that doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Concerning the Just War concept, I find it consistent throughout scripture that God's chosen should be held to a different, higher standard when it comes to living our lives in the world, war should not be an exception.
Concerning the Just War concept, I find it consistent throughout scripture that God's chosen should be held to a different, higher standard when it comes to living our lives in the world, war should not be an exception.
Concerning the Acts 25 passage, Paul was mounting a defense against false charges and the retorical comment could hardly be used as a reason to accept capital punishment.
Acts 13, which I think was meant to be Romans 13, Paul does indeed comment on the role of government, but is "sword" to understood as a literal sword or as authority, I would argue as authority.
Acts 13, which I think was meant to be Romans 13, Paul does indeed comment on the role of government, but is "sword" to understood as a literal sword or as authority, I would argue as authority.
Daniel David
New Member
Except that the sword he mentioned was an executioner's sword.
Basically you are saying that God authorized governments to do something (without disclaimer) that is wrong. Okay.
Basically you are saying that God authorized governments to do something (without disclaimer) that is wrong. Okay.
If I may chime in on this one. I believe that the scriture is clear. Defending yourself is nowhere allowed "turn the other cheek." And sometimes defending other is wrong as well, even if it is Jesus (Peter and his sword).
Having said that there is nothing in scripture that suggests that you should allow a burgular to break into your home rape your wife and daughters without putting up some kind of fight. I am a husband and father of five. I pray that Jesus will never lead me into temptation in this area, but I would not sit by, turning the other cheek while this was going on in my home.
The military is different, however. God has given governments the power of the sword (Romans 13). Why? For the punishment of evil doers. I think valuing human life is wonderful. I am a human with life. However to say that institutions such as capital punishment are wrong is not biblical. No we are not gods with the power to take life, but our ethics ought to be rooted in scripture. And the scripture says that the state (government) has the right to bear the sword. Furthermore they do not bear it in vain, saith the scriptures. It must be weilded to carry out judgement against evil doers.
We must not allow ourselves to go from one extreme to another.
I have taught my sons, under no circumstances should they ever have to hit anyone. I have also taught them that they need to protect their sisters. Here is what I believe. I trust that if someone was to "bully" any one of my sons they would try to reason out of it or walk away, while giving the person the gospel. On the other hand if someone was trying to hurt one of their sisters, they would, having never been taught to fight, get the person away from their sister and themselves out of a fight.
My two bits.
-DeaconLew
Having said that there is nothing in scripture that suggests that you should allow a burgular to break into your home rape your wife and daughters without putting up some kind of fight. I am a husband and father of five. I pray that Jesus will never lead me into temptation in this area, but I would not sit by, turning the other cheek while this was going on in my home.
The military is different, however. God has given governments the power of the sword (Romans 13). Why? For the punishment of evil doers. I think valuing human life is wonderful. I am a human with life. However to say that institutions such as capital punishment are wrong is not biblical. No we are not gods with the power to take life, but our ethics ought to be rooted in scripture. And the scripture says that the state (government) has the right to bear the sword. Furthermore they do not bear it in vain, saith the scriptures. It must be weilded to carry out judgement against evil doers.
We must not allow ourselves to go from one extreme to another.
I have taught my sons, under no circumstances should they ever have to hit anyone. I have also taught them that they need to protect their sisters. Here is what I believe. I trust that if someone was to "bully" any one of my sons they would try to reason out of it or walk away, while giving the person the gospel. On the other hand if someone was trying to hurt one of their sisters, they would, having never been taught to fight, get the person away from their sister and themselves out of a fight.
My two bits.
-DeaconLew
I guess from my name it is apparent that I am into self defense. Our bodies are the temples of God and we should take care of them. I would include protect them as well. I am also a military vet. As a Christian it was hard to justify killing another human being. I had to settle in my mind that if I were to come to that point, I was attempting to save the lives of my fellow soldiers and that was my focus. Maybe that sounds lame, but I guess you would have to be in that situation to understand. Fortunately I never had to kill anyone, but i have had people in my sights just waiting for the order to fire.
Praise the Lord I didn't have to shoot!
Praise the Lord I didn't have to shoot!
From my name you can guess that i am into Self Defense. Our bodies are the temple of God and I believe we should take care of it. That includes protecting it or someone elses if possible. I teach Ladies how to defend themselves from assaults. That includes deadly force if the there is a high threat against their lives. Does that sound reasonable? What are your thoughts?
Daniel David
New Member
There is a difference between revenge (not turning the other cheek) and self-defense.
Pacifism is for people who are cowardly and will not man up to their God ordained task.
God makes the men stronger that we may protect. Cowards are ranked right up there with adulterers in the list of the types of people who will be sent to hell.
Pacifism is for people who are cowardly and will not man up to their God ordained task.
God makes the men stronger that we may protect. Cowards are ranked right up there with adulterers in the list of the types of people who will be sent to hell.
Daniel David
New Member
Was he a pacifist? If so, then you would be understanding me correctly. God did not give men strength for them to hide behind women.
Did anyone read what this fellow wrote? Seems to make sense. What think ye?Originally posted by DeaconLew:
If I may chime in on this one. I believe that the scriture is clear. Defending yourself is nowhere allowed "turn the other cheek." And sometimes defending other is wrong as well, even if it is Jesus (Peter and his sword).
Having said that there is nothing in scripture that suggests that you should allow a burgular to break into your home rape your wife and daughters without putting up some kind of fight. I am a husband and father of five. I pray that Jesus will never lead me into temptation in this area, but I would not sit by, turning the other cheek while this was going on in my home.
The military is different, however. God has given governments the power of the sword (Romans 13). Why? For the punishment of evil doers. I think valuing human life is wonderful. I am a human with life. However to say that institutions such as capital punishment are wrong is not biblical. No we are not gods with the power to take life, but our ethics ought to be rooted in scripture. And the scripture says that the state (government) has the right to bear the sword. Furthermore they do not bear it in vain, saith the scriptures. It must be weilded to carry out judgement against evil doers.
We must not allow ourselves to go from one extreme to another.
I have taught my sons, under no circumstances should they ever have to hit anyone. I have also taught them that they need to protect their sisters. Here is what I believe. I trust that if someone was to "bully" any one of my sons they would try to reason out of it or walk away, while giving the person the gospel. On the other hand if someone was trying to hurt one of their sisters, they would, having never been taught to fight, get the person away from their sister and themselves out of a fight.
My two bits.
-DeaconLew
-DeaconLew
timothy 1769
New Member
Deacon Lew,
I agree with much of what you say. What scriptures allow the defense of others and/or describe when it is allowable? Are there any New Testament examples of force being used in the defence of others?
Can Christians join the military / serve in government?
I agree with much of what you say. What scriptures allow the defense of others and/or describe when it is allowable? Are there any New Testament examples of force being used in the defence of others?
Can Christians join the military / serve in government?
timothy 1769
New Member
Romans 12
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
----
Could "good" in verse 21 possibly mean a good, swift kick to the groin?
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
----
Could "good" in verse 21 possibly mean a good, swift kick to the groin?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 12
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
----
Could "good" in verse 21 possibly mean a good, swift kick to the groin?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defending someone is not executing judgment or taking vengeance. The government will execute justice here on earth, God will in the future. Defending an innocent person is protecting someone from evil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 12
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
----
Could "good" in verse 21 possibly mean a good, swift kick to the groin?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defending someone is not executing judgment or taking vengeance. The government will execute justice here on earth, God will in the future. Defending an innocent person is protecting someone from evil.
If use of violence by the Christian is justifiable, and if the NT is normative for establishing Christian ethics and behaviour, then one would expect it to justify violence, at least in self-defence. Can anyone find an example of this in the NT, or indeed any Christian serving in the military prior to Constantine?
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Paul used the illustration of a soldier in Ephesians when describing the believer's armor, and when encouraging Timothy that he must endure hardship as a good soldier. Granted, these are not explicit endorsements of self defense; however, I wonder if Paul would have used them as he did if he opposed their fundamental function in society.If use of violence by the Christian is justifiable, and if the NT is normative for establishing Christian ethics and behaviour, then one would expect it to justify violence, at least in self-defence. Can anyone find an example of this in the NT, or indeed any Christian serving in the military prior to Constantine?
By the way, I would not necessarily expect the NT to "justify violence, at least in self defence." Why? The Bible does not address every conceivable situation we will face.
The two great commandments are to love God and love one another. How is defending an innocent person not obeying that command?
Another point worth considering, just because the NT is silent on an issue does not mean it is not permitted. For example, some groups adhere to the regulative principle of worship, effectively limiting all worship practices to those that were explicitly described in the NT.
DavidFWhite3
New Member
Excellent topic and very relevant. I would hope we are talking about justifiable use of force to prevent or end an evil. I would also hope we have not lost sight of the vision of the prophets. One day we will beat our swords and spears into plows and pruning hooks and study war no more. If in fact Jesus is transforming the world into a place where the prophetic vision is made real, it must begin with us. How can we influence the richest, most powerful nation in human history, in a way that encourages spending more to produce food than we do to produce weapons?
Dave
Dave