1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Biblical Human Will Limitations

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Dec 11, 2020.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

    "The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
    So the complete absence of free will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

    We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

    Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.

    Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

    Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

    Our ability to make choices from among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Free Will."

    Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

    So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Luke13:24
    “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

    According to some false teachers, no one ever at any time has the ability to seek salvation, due to total spiritual inability, but verse after verse teaches the opposite truth.
     
  3. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2020
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    19
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps, but Luke 13:24 isn't one of them. Acts 17:26-27 is more to your point.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another taint so post, denying Luke 13:24 teaches many will seek salvation, proving total spiritual inability does not afflict all people.
     
  5. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2020
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    19
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus' words in Luke 13 say nothing at all about seeking eternal salvation, thus they prove exactly nothing about spiritual inability pro or con. Are you here to learn at all, or only to preach?
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another material false statement. Folks, just read Luke 13:24

    “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We now have a human will enslave and in bondage to the sin nature!
     
  8. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2020
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    19
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, what you have overlooked here is that the subject in this verse is not eternal salvation. Jesus is speaking about the kingdom which God promised to Israel. They aren't synonyms. I invite you to explain how "striving" (ἀγωνίζομαι) to enter in the present imperative (i.e., "keep on struggling") to obtain eternal salvation is a command Jesus is going to give His followers in the context of Luke 13 or Matthew 7, much less why someone seeking to enter into eternal salvation would not be able to do so. Remember "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness"? In both Gospels that exhortation is found in the immediately preceding context (Luke 12 and Matthew 6 respectively) and it refers to the kingdom, not to salvation. One is not the other.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Calvinist spew unbiblical doctrine, but avoid scripture like a plague.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Utter nonsense, the path leads to life. And many will seek, thus the claim all the lost cannot seek is false. And pointing to your distinction without a difference between God's kingdom and Christ's kingdom, do not nullify the fact many using their spiritual ability seek the kingdom.
     
  11. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2020
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    19
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I could imitate you and ask you to quote where I drew any distinction between kingdoms, which is something you seem to have read into my post, but I will instead simply remind you that claiming something is nonsense doesn't makes it so. Believers can and should seek fulfillment of their kingdom promises; for Israel it was the millennial kingdom; for us it is something more. I am not arguing with your contention that unbelievers can respond to the gospel, I am pointing out that this isn't the passage to use for support, as was clearly stated in my first post in this thread.

    If constant struggling is required to enter the narrow gate, how can it possibly represent salvation -- unless you believe in salvation by works? Eternal salvation does not fit the audience, the context, or Jesus' purpose at this point in His ministry. "Life" does not always denote simple salvation from the lake of fire (nor does the term "saved"). In many passages these terms refer to life in terms of divine quality rather than mere duration; life that partakes of the eternal, and deliverance from things other than eternal judgment. May I suggest you take a beat to reflect on this possibility, do a prayerful concordance study, and revisit some of your assumptions before resuming your attack.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus stated that all before he saves them are enslaved to sin, right?
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please stop your off topic posts finding fault with me and avoiding addressing the topic.
    And who said constant struggling is required to enter the narrow gate?
    People, many, seek salvation, thus demonstrating some spiritual ability. Have you said that is true or is not true?
     
    #13 Van, Dec 15, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You deny many seek salvation, which means your doctrine is unbiblical. Care to revise your statement?
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Isaiah and Paul stated that none left to their own seek after God, correct?
     
  16. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2020
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    19
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus said it. Perhaps you recall the present middle imperative of ἀγωνίζομαι in Luke 13:24 I pointed out earlier; literally, "keep on struggling to enter."

    I have already affirmed it in my first post, citing Acts 17:26, and in my most recent contribution above. Do you read my posts at all?
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,060
    Likes Received:
    1,031
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Y1, please address whether many seek God as scripture states.
    “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
    Are you going to dodge truth?
     
  18. Tsalagi

    Tsalagi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2020
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    19
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How can someone seek to enter into eternal salvation and not be able? I asked you this earlier and you "dodged" the question.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Pharisees tried, but failed due to relying upon their own righteousness!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So Jesus refuses to save any who come unto Him for salvation?
     
Loading...