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Featured Born Dead

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This concept teaches we are conceived in a separated from God state. United with God we are “alive” and separated from God we are “dead.” When Adam sinned and was corrupted, he was separated from God. Thus all in Adam are separated from God and therefore dead at conception. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ.

    Now lets look at some arguments against the doctrine that as a consequence of Adam’s sin, mankind is conceived in a spiritually dead, separated from God state, and is born corrupted with the “old man” nature, referring to Adam’s nature after his eyes were opened.

    Romans 7:9 "For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

    If we are born dead in sins, how could Paul say he was ever alive once? And how could he die if he was born dead?

    This verse is certainly difficult with differing views presented in commentaries. I believe Paul was saying he thought he was alive, not knowing that he was condemned, but when he became aware of the requirement of perfection, he “died” in that he became aware he was dead because unforgiven sin requires separation per Isaiah 59:2. This view is supported contextually with Romans 7:13. The law did not become death, but sin was shown to be death through the Law. Sin becoming utterly sinful speaks to awareness because sin is always utterly sinful from God’s perspective.

    In summary, Romans 7:9 does not teach we were alive at conception, but rather we did not know we were dead. This view is consistent with being conceived in iniquity, and therefore separated from our holy God.

    In the parable of the prodigal son, the illustration starts with the son being together with the Father, hence alive, then he chooses to sin and leaves the Father, becoming separated and hence dead, and then he returns to the Father on his own power, becoming alive again. Now can we say that everyone starts out alive or does everyone start out condemned already according to John 3:18? We start out condemned, and separated because if we were together with Christ we would be alive and not condemned.

    I agree we can establish doctrine supported by parables but we must be careful not to take the illustration past its purpose. In this parable, the son starts out alive, but since this facet of the story does not mesh with all the verses that say because of Adam, we start out “in Adam” and not “in Christ,” that part of the stories’ detail does not override all the verses presenting that we are conceived in iniquity. For example Romans 5:19 says we were "made sinners."

    The other two illustrations of Luke 15, the lost sheep and the lost coin, tell the story of something belonging to the owner. Who is our owner? God. But because of the consequence of the Fall of Adam, mankind is conceived in a separated state, hence lost. When someone is united with Christ, they are recovered, found, redeemed, transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God. Next note that the 99 sheep are not really united with the Father, for they are in need of repentance. So the lost sheep actually represents a lost person who repents, which is consistent with being condemned already. The 10 coin parable makes the same point, the “owner” rejoices over the recovery of the one who repents.

    In summary, both Romans 7 and Luke 15 are consistent with the Fall.

    Next lets consider 1 Peter 2:25: The people in view, were continually straying which refers to the fact they were continually sinning. A lost separated person can continue to sin and store up wrath for himself or herself. The word returned might better be translated turn back, which describes a person who is going the wrong way, i.e. sinning, and then turning back toward the One who leads them in paths of righteousness. So again, no actual support for denial of the consequence of the Fall.

    Everyone is created by God, and thus everyone is a “child of God” in the sense that God is our creator. But to say these children of God cannot be condemned and be children of wrath makes no sense. Next, God chose the nation of Israel to be His people, so in another sense, the believing children of the promise were “children of God.” And now, under the New Covenant, all those chosen by God and spiritually placed in Christ are born anew, becoming “children of God” in the third sense. So when we see the phrase, children of God, or sons of God, we must look to the context to see which of the three ways the phrase is being used.

    As far as 1 Corinthians 15:22, the death referred to with “in Adam all die” simply refers to the fact everyone in sinful Adam is necessarily separated from our holy God.
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Some may question the idea that being dead in sin refers to being separated from God and completely unable, as if dead, to do anything to cause oneself to be united with God.

    However as fallen individuals, all our works of righteousness, are as filthy rags to God. Additionally Isaiah 64:6 indicates our sins have "taken us away" which of course would result in "separation."

    And then, on the other side of the ledger, scripture teaches we are "made alive" together with Christ.

    Colossians 2:13
    And although you were dead by reason of your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings,​

    Now again some claim while "dead/separated" the lost are unable to hear or grasp God's revelation. However, once again scripture teaches otherwise:

    John 5:25
    “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.​

    Therefore, the concept that those "dead in sin" have no capacity to respond to the gospel is unbiblical.
     
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  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    All born except for jesus were born into image of Adam, and received his condition of being spiritually dead and physically dying under the curse
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What causes the inherited sinful nature? Do you even know?
     
  5. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    We are born into the likeness of our father Adam, spiritually dead and sin natures
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You don't know. Who did the knowledge of evil come from, Genesis 2:9.
     
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is the following relative or not?

    And God seeth the light that, good, and God separated between the light and the darkness, and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one. Gen 1:4,5

    Wo to those saying to evil 'good,' And to good 'evil,' Putting darkness for light, and light for darkness, Putting bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. Isa 5:20

    in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; for not ourselves do we preach, but Christ Jesus -- Lord, and ourselves your servants because of Jesus; because it is God who said, Out of darkness light to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    When did, "this age," begin?
    When God said, "Out of darkness Light to shine"?

    Is God through flesh and blood, man, about to exercise spiritual warfare with the devil?

    As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might; put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; Eph 6:10-12

    Is God through Adam about to allow, the means of the the destruction of the devil and his works to take place?

    Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- Heb 2:14
    because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming. Rom 5:12-14
    he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning <Gen 1:1) the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, <as his type, Adam) that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8

    And Jesus answering said to them, 'The sons of this age do marry and are given in marriage, Luke 20:34
    therefore doth a man leave his father and his mother, and hath cleaved unto his wife, and they have become one flesh. Gen 2:24

    Why, one may ask.

    for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness. Rom 11:32
    in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him; Eph 1:10
     
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    John 5:25
    “Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

    Pay attention to the last phrase. Here Jesus is expressing that a particular dead person will hear Jesus call them out of death into life.
    It is a fallacy to imagine that the entire world will hear the voice of Jesus and then the human who hears will choose whether to respond or not. The text certainly does not say such a thing. One would have to read universal call into the verse and then ig ore the contradiction that comes with such a claim.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Obviously, the obvious is not obvious to all. John 5:25 says the "dead ones" referring to those spiritually dead will hear the voice of the Son of God. Have they been "regenerated" or made alive, or are they dead ones? They are dead ones, who have not yet been made alive. Now those in the future who hear (better heed) will be then be made alive.

    The verse does not say all the dead ones will heed or that only a selected subset will hear, both of those bogus views must be read into the text.
     
    #9 Van, Aug 5, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    "Those who hear will live."
    This clearly means that not all dead will hear Jesus voice calling them. Those who hear Jesus voice (like Lazerus heard Jesus voice) will live. This puts all the power and authority in salvation into Jesus hands and removes it from men.
     
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    The fall of Adam, being born into his image
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Reference from chapter 7: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good, I find not. For the good that I would, I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. - Romans 7:18-19 From these words the following things may be fairly concluded, namely, If no good thing dwells in a regenerate man, that is, in his flesh, much less in an unregenerate one, who is wholly flesh, carnal, and corrupt; and if in a renewed man, where there is a will, there is not a power to do that which is spiritually good, much less able is an unrenewed man to do that which is so, who has neither power nor will; and if such is the strength of corrupt nature in one that is born again, as often to hinder him from doing that good he would, and to put him on doing that evil he would not, how much greater must its strength be in unsanctified persons? These conclusions will appear to be just, if it is but allowed, that the apostle is here speaking of himself, and of himself as regenerate. But to this, the following things are excepted. 1st.

    "The scope of the place; 24 which is to show the necessity of the abrogation of the law, from the inefficiency of it to deliver men from sin; since it rather increased it; to prove which, an unregenerate person, in whom sin reigns, was the most proper instance the apostle could pitch upon." But to this may be replied, that though the apostle, in the beginning of the chapter, is speaking of the abrogation of the law to believers by the body of Christ, yet, nearer the discourse in controversy, his obvious scope and design is to show the spirituality and perfection of the law; that it was holy, just, and good, and that it was owing to the weakness of man that it was not fulfilled. This he could not better illustrate and exemplify than in a regenerate person; for if such an one does not come up to the spirituality of the law, and is not able to keep it perfectly, it cannot be thought that an unregenerate man should. 2ndly The coherence of the words;

    25 It is observed, "that the apostle speaks of an unregenerate man from verse 7 to the l4th, and therefore, why should it be thought that he discontinues his discourse concerning him?" In answer to this it should be observed, that the apostle, even within the limited period, is not speaking of a man in a pure, natural estate, but of himself, under great convictions of sin, under the powerful work of the law upon his conscience, showing him the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Besides, the apostle changes the tense; for whereas, within the mentioned compass, he speaks in the past tense; from verse 14, to the end of the chapter, he uses the present tense.

    And therefore supposing, that in the former part of the chapter, he considers himself as unregenerate; there is good reason to conclude, he does not continue his discourse of himself as such, or of any unregenerate man.

    And whereas it is urged, 26 that he says in verse 9, I was alive without the law once, or I lived without the law once; which it is observed cannot be true of him in his own person, seeing he was born a Jew, and brought up under the law all his days: it may be replied, that though he never lived without the letter of the law, vet without the knowledge of the spirituality and perfection of it; or that he was alive, that is, in a fair way for heaven and eternal life, in his own apprehensions, before the law came with power, and entered into his conscience; but then sin, which lay before as dead, revived, and he died to all his hopes of obtaining life by his obedience to it.
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    3rdly The most considerable objection is taken from the description and character of the person spoken of; as,

    1. "He is said 27 to be carnal (v. 14), whereas regenerate ones have crucified the flesh with the lusts, and are debtors, not to the flesh to live after the flesh (Gal. 5:24; Rom. 8:12)." I answer, though regenerate persons have crucified the flesh, and are not debtors to it to live after it, yet from some considerations may be denominated carnal; as partly from their first birth, and the corruption of nature they bring into the world with them; partly from the continuance of the flesh, in which dwells no good thing and with which they serve the law of sin; and partly from the lusts of the flesh, which remain in them, and war against them; and on account of which the Corinthians, though babes in Christ, and so regenerate ones, are styled and treated as carnal. Add to this, that the apostle here says of himself, I am carnal, in comparison of the law, which was spiritual. And, indeed, when compared with this, the holiest man in the world must be reckoned carnal; for if the holy angels, when compared with the Divine Being, are chargeable with folly, much more must the saints, in this state of imperfection, be accounted carnal in comparison of the spiritual law of God, which is a transcript of the divine nature.

    2. "He is said 28 to be sold under sin (v. 14), which is a character of the greatest sin-hers; as of Ahab (1 Kings 21:20, and others, Isa. 50:1), and even of revolters from the true religion (1 Mac. 1:16), and signifies, that he was a servant and slave to sin; whereas regenerate persons are free from sin, and become the servants of righteousness. " I reply, that though the person spoken of is said to be sold under sin, yet not to sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab and others did; between these there is a wide difference; in the one, man is passive, in the other, active; the one is against his will, the other with it. So, though the apostle was sold under sin, it was not his own act, and was against his will, as a renewed man; with his flesh he served the law of sin, but with his mind the law of God; which proves, that he speaks of himself as regenerate: for his character as unregenerate was, that he was serving, that is, readily, cheerfully, and willingly, divers lusts and pleasures. Besides, the apostle is to be understood of his other I, which was carnal, of the flesh, or old man, which was under sin; and not of the new man. which is not under the law of sin, but under grace, as a reigning, governing principle.

    3. "He is said hot to do the good he would, but the evil which he would not (v. 16), 29 whereas it is said of regenerate persons, that they work out their salvation with fear and trembling, God working in them both to will and to do of his good pleasure; that they will, in newness of life, and after the Spirit, and not after the flesh (Phil. 2:12, 13; Rom. 6:4; 8:1)." To which I reply, that though regenerate ones do that which is good, ye not always, there is not a just man on earth, that doth good and sinneth not (Eccl. 7:20); nor does God always work in them to will and to do, but when he pleases, of his own good pleasure. Besides, the good this person did not, he willed it, he desired it; whereas a carnal man wills, desires, and savors the things of the flesh, and them only, and not the things o: the Spirit; and also hated the evil he did whereas an unregenerate man chooses his own ways, and his soul delights in his abominations: so that this character proves the person to be a regenerate, and not an unregenerate man.

    4. "It is said of this person, that sin dwelleth in him (vv. 17, 20), 30 but regenerate ones are dead to sin and alive to God, and the Spirit of Christ, and Christ himself dwells in them (Rom. 6:11; 8:11; Gal. 2:20)." To this may be replied, that though the saints are dead to sin being justified from it by the righteousness of Christ, and freed from the dominion of it by the power of divine grace, yet they are not delivered from the being of it; sin is in them, dwells in them, lives in them, though they do not live in sin, and sometimes very strongly works in them; all which is no contradiction to the inhabitation of Christ, and his Spirit in them. These dwell under the same roof with sin, but not in the same apartment; sin dwells in the flesh, in the old man, in the unrenewed self, in which dwells no good thing; Christ and the Spirit dwell in the new man, in the new heart, in the renewed self. Moreover, the saints in all ages have found, and have complained of sin dwelling in them, as Job, David, Solomon, the church in Isaiah’s time, and the beloved disciple John (Job 9:20; Ps. 38:3,4 ; Prov. 20:9; Isa. 14:6; 1 John 1:8). This character therefore agrees with a regenerate man.

    5. This person affirms of himself that no good thing dwelt in him (v. 18), whereas there are many good things dwell in regenerate ones. This is very true, there are many good things in the saints; as the good work of grace and the good word of God, the good Spirit of Christ, and Christ himself, yea, God the Father dwells in them, and makes his abode with them. But then let it be observed, how cautiously and with what limitation the apostle expresses himself: In me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing. Now had he spoken of himself as unregenerate, or in the person of an unregenerate man, he had no need to have used this restrictive clause; for who knows not, that in an unregenerate man dwells no good thing?

    6. "This man is said to will but not to perform that which is good (v. 18), whereas 31 regenerate men are the workmanship of God, created in Christ Jesus, unto good works, and God works in them both to will and to do." What has been said in answer to the third objection may be sufficient to remove this; for though the saints do that which is good, yet not always, nor does God always work in them to do, when they have a will to do that which is good. Besides, in unregenerate persons, there is no will present with them to that which is good; they desire not the knowledge of God’s ways; their carnal minds are enmity against God, and are not subject to the law of God; nor can they be subject to it, without the grace of God.

    7. "This person complains that he was a captive of the law of sin (v. 23), whereas 32 regenerate persons are freed from the law of sin and death (Rom. 7:2)." But though they are freed, from condemnation by sin which is what is meant in the place referred to, as appears front the context, and from the dominion of sin, yet not from the being of it, nor altogether from the power of it; for it sometimes brings into captivity, though even then it has not the dominion; a man may be taken prisoner, and carried captive, and yet remain a subject of his lawful prince; so the saints may be brought into captivity to the law of sin, and yet not be under the dominion of it, but continue under the reign of grace, and in the kingdom of God’s dear Son.

    8. "This same person bitterly complains of a body of death, and desires to be delivered from it; which shows 33 that he was detained by it, and under it." I reply, that the desire of deliverance from the body of death shows that it was distressing, uneasy, and uncomfortable to him, but not that it had the dominion over him; he was delivered from condemnation by it, and from the government of it, and was vary desirous of being freed from the very being of it, which was so great a clog and encumbrance to him; and this none but a regenerate person truly desires, as none but such an one knows from whence a deliverance of this kind comes, which proves the person speaking to be a renewed man, since he adds, Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    9. "The apostle 34 elsewhere speaks of himself in a different manner, as one that walked worthy of the Gospel, to be imitated by others, and who was able to do all things through the grace of God (1 Cor. 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:13). But then this does not contradict what he here says in this chapter, which perfectly agrees with other passages of his, in which he owns his sinfulness and weakness, and ascribes all he did to the grace of God (see 1 Tim. 1:15; 2 Cor. 12:10; 1 Cor. 15:10). It is evident, from all his epistles, that this great man God lived under a continual sense of the corruption of his nature, his own unworthiness and inability.

    10. "Origen, Chrysostom, Theodoret, and others, interpret 35 these words of men under the thralldom and dominion of sin, through a long use and custom." This interpretation of the words was indeed first given by Origen, was greedily catched at by Pelagius, revived by Socinus and his followers, and some popish writers, and at last adopted by the Arminians. But Methodius, 36 a martyr, whose judgment Dr. Whitby seems fond of, first in the words of one Procius, and then in his own, delivers the sense of them agreeable to ours, understanding them of a regenerate man. Wherefore what Vorstius affirms is false, that all the ancients before Austin interpreted these words of unregenerate men.
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I shall now, 4thly. Subjoin some arguments, proving that this part of the chapter, from verse 14 to the end or it, is spoken by the apostle of himself, and of himself as regenerate.

    1. The apostle all along speaks of himself in the first person: That which I do I allow not; what I hate that I do; I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing; I delight in the law of God: I find a law in my members; yea, says he, With the mind I myself, auvtoj evgw/, serve the law of God; which can never be understood in a figurative sense as personating another; nor do the passages usually alleged prove such a way of speaking common, (as 1 Cor. 6:12; 10:23; 13:1-3; Gal. 2:18, 20).

    2. When he speaks of his unregenerate state, and the first convictions of sin, he speaks of them as things past: When we were in the flesh; I had not known sin, but by the law; Sin taking occasion by the law wrought in me all manner of concupiscence, deceived me, and by it slew me; I was alive without the law once, etc. But from verse 14 to the end of the chapter, he speaks in the present tense, of what he then was, and found: I am carnal, I do what I would not, I consent to the law that it is good, I delight in the law of God, etc.

    3. The several things which are said of this person, cannot agree with the apostle, nor with any other, but as regenerate; such only hate evil, delight in the law of God, and serve it with their mind.

    4. The distinction of flesh and spirit, the inward and outward man, is not applicable to any other but a regenerate man; for the spirit, and inward man, is not the soul, opposed to the body, but the spiritual man, the new man, the hidden man of the heart, the truth of grace, in opposition to the flesh, the old man, or corrupt nature. Now only the latter, and not the former, is to be found in an unregenerate man.

    5. The struggle between flesh and spirit, between the law in the members and the law of the mind, proves that these words can belong to no other than a regenerate person; with which agrees Galatians 5:17. Only in the Shulamite (Song of Sol. 6:13.) true believers are to be ‘seen, as it were the company of two companies, flesh and spirit, sin and grace, warring against each other.

    6. The thanksgiving for deliverance from sin through Christ, towards the close of the chapter, can only come from a believer; none but a regenerate man knows any thing of the nature of it, from whence it is, and can only be thankful for it.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    If I may, King James Bible
    And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son
    in his own likeness, after his image;
    and called his name Seth:

    Other verses Teach that man was made in God's Image, however, in connection with Adam's Fall, we KNOW that NO SPARK of DIVINITY or other such characteristic followed onto Adam's posterity.

    Adam's posterity had ADAM'S NATURE Imputed to them and he was NOT GOD regardless of what the references to "man made in the image of God", actually specify (i.e., New Testament, "in the similitude of God"). King James Bible James 3:9;
    Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

    Seth and I were born with The NATURE of ADAM, not God.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, not all the spiritually dead ever hear the gospel. That is why we are to go to the whole world.
    Not all who hear the gospel heed it. But according to scripture some of the lost, spiritually dead, people hear and understand and respond affirmatively to the gospel. And of course, not all of those who affirmatively respond to the gospel are credited by God with righteous faith.

    This is a fundamental truth denied by Falselogy.

    John 5:25 says the "dead ones" referring to those spiritually dead will hear the voice of the Son of God. Have they been "regenerated" or made alive, or are they dead ones? They are dead ones, who have not yet been made alive. Now those in the future who hear (better heed) will be then be made alive.

    The verse does not say all the dead ones will heed or that only a selected subset will hear, both of those bogus views must be read into the text.
     
    #17 Van, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    When any lost sinner responds to the good news, its due to the Holy Spirit enabling them to do such, as he must first regenerate them and grant them saving faith!
     
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Where is JOJ when I need him. Please provide a source for your false statement.
    Recall individuals are chosen for salvation through or by way of their credited faith. Thus the regeneration before faith doctrine of Falselogy is unbiblical false doctrine. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-25.
     
  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    They can only respond with saving faith once enabled to do such by the Holy Spirit!
     
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