But you would be wrong because all I have done is believe Scripture even if it does not easily make sense to me.
Acts 2:23 his Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
YOu see, if you read the SCripture and believe it, it says exactly that.
Acts 4:27-28 27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Quite clearly, your philosophies contradict the revelation of Scripture.
Calvinism makes God the author of sin!
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by aa0310, Feb 9, 2005.
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Please explain what you mean. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm agreeing with your previous post - I think. If God truly ordains sin, then we have no control over it and hence no responsibility for its consequences; the responsibility is God's alone. Thus God is the author of sin - which is of course heresy. Still, that's the logical conclusion of determinism
Yours in Christ
Matt -
Your method of attack is commoon and has failed everytime it has been tried. Try a new tactic. It won't work any better, but at least it will be new. -
All you Calvinsits do things to suit the time. Like you will argue that man does not have a free will, and that it is in complete "bondage", yet you can say "Every Calvinist believes that Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will" If it is by his own free will, the how could his actions have been detirmined by God beforehand? It is clear that your "system" is not really one at all, as under close inspection there are very many contradictions. Its easy to make all of these statements, but they do not agree with Scripture, or the English language! You keep on saying that God "ordains" sin, but obviously you do NOT understand the meaning of the language you use! You assume quite incorrectly, that someone can be the "cause" of an action, and yet not be the author of it! God is the "cause" of Creation, because He created all things.
The so called "method" you accuse me of using, is the plain teachings of Scripture! As I have already stated, this whole Calvinistic teaching of God "ordaining" all things, is complete heresy! You say that I don't know what I am talking about, when I wrote that in your system God waould have caused the fall of man. Then, why don't you tell me what the correct "theology" according Calvinists, is on the fall of man? -
Please explain what you mean. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm agreeing with your previous post - I think. If God truly ordains sin, then we have no control over it and hence no responsibility for its consequences; the responsibility is God's alone. Thus God is the author of sin - which is of course heresy. Still, that's the logical conclusion of determinism
Yours in Christ
Matt </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Matt
Yes, I think that you can see the wood from the trees! It is very clear that God could never have "ordained" all things, as if this is the case, then when a person comits adultery, murder, or is a homosexual, all sin according to the Bible, yet the Calvinist would have us believe that God indeed was indeed the Person Who "ordained" or "caused" these sins in the first place! To take this further, God causes us to sin, then He punishes us for doing something that He made us do in the first place! This is nothing short of blasphemy! I say, if this nonsense was taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses, then it rightly would have been condemned as blatant demonic teaching!
Yours in the Gospel of Jesus! -
This post is a prime example of what I am talking about. I posted two out of many Scripture that directly and explicitly refute your position. You don't even address them. You ignore them.
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God is the creator of all in the sense that he created good and evil. Without evil there is no such thing as good.
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ACtually, GB it is the other way around. Without good, there is no such thing as evil. God existd in eternity past before the foundation of the world. There was no evil then. Evil is not a necessary corrolary of good. Good can exist without it.
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Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Wes,
You are comparing apples and oranges! Those in Christ are still sinners....all still sin, but we are not living in habitual sin as those enslaved to sin before Christ. There is a difference.
So by your way of thinking, do those in Christ never sin?Click to expand...
Sin is not a pre-belief post belief issue. Sin is a human issue! Those who are not believers are not necessarily "slave to sin" any more than those who are believers are "slave to righteousness".
The Power that sin had over man, which was death for sin, has been broken by Jesus' atonement for sin! Man does not have to die for sins but can have everlasting life through faith because the penalty for sin has been paid ONCE, for ALL! That which has been done Once for all need not be done over and over and over!
It is man's faith in the Atoner that makes man acceptable for salvation which is everlasting life! Sin has been defeated, Death has been defeated. Faith in God can never be defeated! -
PastorSBC
Wow, I do not honestly know how anyone who studies God's Word can come to that conclusion. That is scary to me. So basically man and satan can overpower God? Anytime we make a statement saying God is not in control, we better back up and really think through and study what God's Word teaches.Click to expand...
Will God control this world You bet when He set's up His throne every knee shall bow. How in the world can you be so blind as to not see that this world is not in control of God. God is only allowing sin to take place. God is only allowing certain things to happen. Thats just plain nonsense. There is a war going on between two forces God and Satan are wrestling for the throne of this world. If God were in control there would be no more battle. If God were in control there would be no conflict. God can and will take control when He is ready, but He is not in control at this moment and you know it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike :( -
Hi Larry;
Acts 2:23 his Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
YOu see, if you read the SCripture and believe it, it says exactly that.
Acts 4:27-28 27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.Click to expand...
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
Mike,
Go back and read what the thread is. It is about God ordaining sin. Those passages I gave are not about God controlling the whole world. They are a God inspired, inerrant refutation of the charge that God does not ordain sin and that if God did ordain sin he would responsible for it.
The Scripture clearly declares that the premise of this thread is wrong. -
ILUVLIGHT
I would have to say I think you should expand your view just a bit. God has told us that He created the heavens and the earth. It would be a stretch to say that God's creation excluded any elements that are present in that creation today. Sin is present in the creation. So God probably did create sin, or at least the capacity in man to sin. I don't believe that God made man a sinner, I believe that was man's doing. But, the garden, the fruit tree, the beguiling serpent, the opportunity, and man in whom God placed the capability of choice and individual independent action all came together at the right time, and place, and man deliberately chose to disobey God! Thus sin entered the world that God created. And God knew it would happen because he established from before the foundation of the world, "The Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world".
So to say that God would not, or could not is not thinking things through.
What we do NOT know for sure is when the Spirit realm in which our God is the supreme and Only God, came into existance relative to HIS creation of this world. We have no way of knowing if Evil and Sin existed before the Creation, and imposed itself upon God's newly created mankind. The knowledge we have is comprised only of what's been given to us.
Was the test in the Garden fair? After all, here is newly created man, who having no prior knowledge or teaching, received a command from God, some time before the test, and with nothing to compare that command to, was set to upon by a beguiling serpent. Man had never been disciplined to know what the consequences of disobedience might be, he had not witnessed death because everything was new. So death had no meaning to him. A command with stated consequences with nothing to give perspective. Would you have done any differently than Adam? I don't think so! I would probably have done just what Adam in his circumstances did.
All we do know is that in the creation sin exists, and man seems to like it! We know from the scriptures given to us that Jesus, is God the Son, and that He, in his role of The Lamb of God" offered himself up in sacrifice to remove the penalty of sin from mankind so that those whosoevers that believe in him can have everlasting life. -
Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
ILUVLIGHT
I would have to say I think you should expand your view just a bit. God has told us that He created the heavens and the earth. It would be a stretch to say that God's creation excluded any elements that are present in that creation today. Sin is present in the creation. So God probably did create sin, or at least the capacity in man to sin. I don't believe that God made man a sinner, I believe that was man's doing. But, the garden, the fruit tree, the beguiling serpent, the opportunity, and man in whom God placed the capability of choice and individual independent action all came together at the right time, and place, and man deliberately chose to disobey God! Thus sin entered the world that God created. And God knew it would happen because he established from before the foundation of the world, "The Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world".
So to say that God would not, or could not is not thinking things through.
What we do NOT know for sure is when the Spirit realm in which our God is the supreme and Only God, came into existance relative to HIS creation of this world. We have no way of knowing if Evil and Sin existed before the Creation, and imposed itself upon God's newly created mankind. The knowledge we have is comprised only of what's been given to us.
Was the test in the Garden fair? After all, here is newly created man, who having no prior knowledge or teaching, received a command from God, some time before the test, and with nothing to compare that command to, was set to upon by a beguiling serpent. Man had never been disciplined to know what the consequences of disobedience might be, he had not witnessed death because everything was new. So death had no meaning to him. A command with stated consequences with nothing to give perspective. Would you have done any differently than Adam? I don't think so! I would probably have done just what Adam in his circumstances did.
All we do know is that in the creation sin exists, and man seems to like it! We know from the scriptures given to us that Jesus, is God the Son, and that He, in his role of The Lamb of God" offered himself up in sacrifice to remove the penalty of sin from mankind so that those whosoevers that believe in him can have everlasting life.Click to expand... -
Hi Wes;
So to say that God would not, or could not is not thinking things through.Click to expand...
Was the test in the Garden fair?Click to expand...
After all, here is newly created man, who having no prior knowledge or teaching, received a command from God, some time before the test, and with nothing to compare that command to, was set to upon by a beguiling serpent.Click to expand...
Man had never been disciplined to know what the consequences of disobedience might be, he had not witnessed death because everything was new. So death had no meaning to him. A command with stated consequences with nothing to give perspective. Would you have done any differently than Adam? I don't think so! I would probably have done just what Adam in his circumstances did.
All we do know is that in the creation sin exists, and man seems to like it! We know from the scriptures given to us that Jesus, is God the Son, and that He, in his role of The Lamb of God" offered himself up in sacrifice to remove the penalty of sin from mankind so that those whosoevers that believe in him can have everlasting life.Click to expand...
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
Hi Larry this is what you said and is what inspire my defense of my God;
Incorrect. The Bible plainly declares that God ordained sin (Acts 2). That does not make him the author of sin nor does it remove responsibility from man for sin. The Bible says that God controls all things. All things, of necessity, must include sin. Your vain and empty philosophies have led you away from the simple truth revealed in Scripture.Click to expand...
Acts 2:23 his Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
YOu see, if you read the SCripture and believe it, it says exactly that.
Acts 4:27-28 27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.Click to expand...
May Christ Shine His Light On us All;
Mike -
Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Larry this is what you said and is what inspire my defense of my God;Click to expand...
You are plain wrong God did not approve of sin in any way. Given that the word Ordained means approved. The opposite is the truth.Click to expand...
At this point, you should be hastily backing away from your position and saying that just because he ordained one or two sins doesn't mean that he ordains all sins. That would be a much harder position for me to defend in some sense. But you insist on denying the plain teaching of Scripture for some reason.
The event of Christ being sacrificed is not ordained or approved of but was allowed for the purpose of ridding man of his sins.Click to expand...
The actions were allowed because it please the Father that His son Love men so much that He went through all this when he very clearly didn't have to.Click to expand...
May Christ Shine His Light On us All;
Click to expand... -
We should never get caught up in Sepeculative Theology, as it is always NOT based on what the Bible teaches! To say that God created sin, or even the capacity in many to sin, would certainly fall into this category. The Bible is silent on the origin of sin, and we should never try to guess where it originates from. God in His wisdom has chosen not to reveal this to us, and we should be content with this. How Satan rebelled with God and why he did so is very limited in Scripture, and are things that we really do not need to know. Many heresies have begun by people assuming that which is not given in the Word of God!Click to expand...
Did God create the earth?
Did God create man?
Did God not create every living, breathing thing?
Did God not place man in the garden where there was a special tree in the midst thereof?
Did God not create the serpent?
Is the scene in which the first sin committed by man not described in Scripture?
Are the words not contained in Scripture?
Is God's command to man not recorded in scripture?
Scripture is clear that man disobeyed God!...and has been doing so ever since! The scriptures clearly reveal that to be true! The setting in which the sin occured is in Scripture.
The characters are all recorded in Scripture.
Why can't you see it? There is no speculation here! IT is recorded truth! -
Hi Larry
Wave bye to that perfect theology you said you had. The pleasure that God received was from Christ not from the sin of the men you claim. Your own docrine teaches that man in his natural state can do nothing to please God. The men who were comiting this sin were not saved Larry. So here you are with your perfect wavering doctrine stating your own contradictions. Do you or do you not believe that natural man can do nothing to please God?
You surprize me all the time Larry. Do you see the waver in your own ideas or not?
God has something for you Larry all you have to do is trust Him for it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike -
The pleasure that God received was from Christ not from the sin of the men you claim.Click to expand...
Your own docrine teaches that man in his natural state can do nothing to please God. The men who were comiting this sin were not saved Larry.Click to expand...
You surprize me all the time Larry.Click to expand...
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