The injustice is not with God, we can agree on that. But in this case the injustice lies with a doctrinal position that places such untowardness at the foot of the throne of God...
Just to keep things in perspective, when I talk to God, I bow my head and approach him with humility and a contrite spirit: When I talk to reformers I stand straight up and assume a defensive posture... I am standing straight up now....
In order to understand love I use a two pronged approach, to find out what it is, I read the love chapter: To find out what it is not, I read reformed theology...
Calvinism - TULIP - "I"rresistible Grace
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jdlongmire, Jun 16, 2008.
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1 Cor 13
8 Love never fails.
Does Gods love end? Will God stop loving you? Does God love the people that He slashes with a sickle and sends to hell? -
Disagreement with you does not translate into ignorance. -
Logic huh? Shall we start with the logic of "un-conditional election". Illogical
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Jarthur001 said:In other words, your answer to this verse...
"You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"
is...Illogical???? How can you say that about God??Click to expand...
This is why you fall short in your logic.Click to expand...
Before Paul says.."Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"
He says..."Who art thou, Lord?"Click to expand...
Stop trying to frighten people into agreeing with you by trying to make them think that to disagree with you is the same as disagreeing with God... I am not frightened; neither do I have respect for your argument.:BangHead:
No...I call it mercyClick to expand...Click to expand... -
HisServant said:Jarthur001 said:Strangle the straw man... I am not answering back to God... I AM TALKING TO YOU...
Are you for real, human logic and reason is the only tool that God has given to man to understand his revelations to us...
That's what I do also. When I ask "who art thou, if your response is not "I am God", then I do not ask the second question...
Stop trying to frighten people into agreeing with you by trying to make them think that to disagree with you is the same as disagreeing with God... I am not frightened; neither do I have respect for your argument.:BangHead:
I have been told on numerous occasions that the elect got mercy and the rest got justice. Consult with your own....Click to expand...
1) no verses used for support.
2) no reply to the verses posed by the Calvinist.
mans logic vs the Bible once again.
Being that you will not support your argument with the Bible, your words are but folly. There is no need to go on. You can have the last word, and if by chance you use a verse I may reply. Good day.Click to expand... -
jdlongmire said:This is going to be a long one, sorry.
This is what the Bible teaches - Salvation belongs to the Lord.
God created Man to glorify Christ as Savior and Judge. He elects some to salvation despite their sinfulness and judges the rest according to the sin of Adam and their own sin.
Can the Bible?
Read Romans 11
I think you mean 2 Peter 3:9
All here is speaking of the elect for the sake of whom he delays His judgment since the Fall as opposed to the group in v7.
The Lord Jesus christ said,
"Whosoever" is the elect, since only they have been saved by grace through faith as a gift.
The Bible consistently teaches that Man is dead in his sin and God, in His mercy elects some to salvation of His own good pleasure, while reserving the rest for judgment.
Now that might not be a salve for a Man-centered listener, but it is sweet to the ears of a God-centered believer.
Salvation belongs to the Lord!Click to expand...
For instance, you say that all dosen't mean all. Well when I was in school, I was taught that all ment all.
When you read 2 Pet 3:9 (yea I knew it was 2 Pet, I just forgot to put the 2 before pete, my bad)
all means all, Peter didn't say all of the elect. Those who have been born from adam till now. God does not want any to burn in hell, that is why he gave us an choice To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, or reject the Lord Jesus Christ and pay for your sins through out eternity. But becasue God wants his people to love him by there "own free will", he doesn't want a bunch of robot.
It is God's grace that he saved me, but I still had to believe on his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus. Even if God wanted me saved, but I rejected his son, blasphemed his son, I would have ended up in hell. But thanks to Gods grace I believed on the Lord Jesus in March 2005, and I now know with certinty that I will live forever with the Lord Jesus Christ.
"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1-2 AV1611
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 AV1611
I believe with all that I am that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am not a "man centered listener". The Lord Jesus Christ is everything to me. If it wasn't for him, I would be on my way to destruction. If I recieved what I truly desirve, I would be in the center of Hell, and I would burn for all eternity. Thanks to God's grace He has saved me from hell and has givin me eternal life.
In 2005, I came to a cross road, I could have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ right then and there, but I didn't, I "chose to believe on him as my saviour, and to live for him the best I can"
"For I can do all things through Christ, which straingtheneth me" Phil 4:13 AV1611
Salvation is to all that will believe. For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, Thou shalt be saved Romans 3:9 AV1611
God will by his grace save any man who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, wether they are of the elect, like I said before, if your not of the elect now, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" and you will become of the elect:D -
JoshuaLawn1611 said:Boy o Boy, you know, you really have to wrestle scripture to prove calvanism. You have to add to scripture and you have to take away from scripture.
For instance, you say that all dosen't mean all. Well when I was in school, I was taught that all ment all.Click to expand...
I was wondering when the old saw "all means all" would show up.
By your reasoning, if I can show one time in Scripture where all does not mean "every member or individual component", then you are refuted.
Matthew 3:4-6
4Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;
6and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.Click to expand...
No.
Please stop bringing up well refuted objections then using them to prop up your strawmen. -
JoshuaLawn1611 said:Boy o Boy, you know, you really have to wrestle scripture to prove calvanism. You have to add to scripture and you have to take away from scripture.
For instance, you say that all dosen't mean all. Well when I was in school, I was taught that all ment all.Click to expand...
"ok..everyone...come to my house and we will have hotdogs!!".
Everyone means everyone, but it does not mean everyone in the world, but everyone in the room.
All does mean all, but please apply to context next time.
When you read 2 Pet 3:9 .......Peter didn't say all of the elect. Those who have been born from adam till now. God does not want any to burn in hell,Click to expand...
All would have been saved....but now they are not.
Each day God waits 1000s more go to hell.
What is God waiting on?
If Christ waits another year to come back, millions more will go to hell.
But becasue God wants his people to love him by there "own free will", he doesn't want a bunch of robot.Click to expand...
No one but maybe a hyper-Calvinist believes men are robots.
It is God's grace that he saved meClick to expand...
If this be the case, you need to stop giving the glory to yourself and give all to Him.
but I still had to believe on his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus.Click to expand...
Even if God wanted me saved, but I rejected his son, blasphemed his son, I would have ended up in hell.Click to expand...
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Does all mean all? If God wants you to be saved, He will give you to the Son and you will be saved. right?
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 AV1611Click to expand... -
jdlongmire said:Click to expand...
Again, I give you another chance to answer "where is the straw?" :laugh:
The "pixie dust" of "regeneration without knowledge or belief!" God "sprinkles" THEM (which is why you most often see baptism by sprinkling in Reformed churches), the "elect," with said "pixie dust" before they even hear or obey the gospel! Isn't it wonderful how God's grace overwhelms "irresistibly" those who know nothing of Him!? And now the "WILLINGLY" (kinda stretches the meaning of the word but...) "willingly" hear what their fellows can't hear -- are drawn" (or "dragged" in some Calvinists circles) where the "eternally condemned reprobates" cannot come --- unto repentance and profession of their "election" ... er, "salvation."Click to expand...
skypair -
Jarthur001 said:If you have some pitfalls, now would be a good time to point them out. So far its not working for you. Now this should tell you something.
My guess is that you will not change your views even with all you pitfalls shown as bogus claims, but rather keep trying to find more pitfalls of Calvinism. It becomes a mission for some. Good luck with that. :)Click to expand...
But second, please tell how to make a "blind man" see if not with scripture (as in "point them out"). We've been telling you that you have the devil's dictionary and trying to correct your bogus definitions from scripture. What WOULD you believe/see?
skypair -
Jarthur001 said:Is God unjust for this? God forbid.
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?Click to expand...
"Is [Calvinism] unjust for this? [Calvinism] forbid.
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to [Calvinism]?"
You're really just saying that Calvinism knows the will of God when it doesn't. Rom 11 speaks about how God has dealt with ISRAEL. I, on the other hand, would have EVERY RIGHT as an individual to question God as to why He won't save me! Justice and fairness are at stake, are they not? In fact, that questioning is the way many are "drawn" to Christ, James!
It is clear you do not understand the love of God. God is LOVE not loving. To see what pure love is please read the love chapter and KNOW that love never fails.Click to expand...
You know who doesn't think God loves the whole world? Those under conviction and those who, like Eve, are under the delusion of Satan. Please, James. Spare us your phobias and neuroses -- believe the BIBLE.
skypair -
Jarthur001 said:The chief duty of man is to know God. Believing in God is only the begining. You must ask.."who art thou Lord?" before you can serve him and say..."Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"Click to expand...
However, it should be noted election has nothing to do with Gods justice,...Click to expand...
Love never fails.Click to expand...
But, in fact, the verse you cite refers to preservation of the saints and MUTUAL love. I am so sorry that even as I type these words, you won't understand them, James. :tear:
skypair -
Jarthur001 said:HisServant said:Again all readers take note.
1) no verses used for support.
2) no reply to the verses posed by the Calvinist.
mans logic vs the Bible once again.
Being that you will not support your argument with the Bible, your words are but folly. There is no need to go on. You can have the last word, and if by chance you use a verse I may reply. Good day.Click to expand...
skypairClick to expand... -
jdlongmire said:I am glad you went to school, I wish they had taught you a bit more about whitespace.
I was wondering when the old saw "all means all" would show up.Click to expand...
By your reasoning, if I can show one time in Scripture where all does not mean "every member or individual component", then you are refuted.Click to expand...
skypair -
skypair said:First, James, someone who is RIGHT shouldn't change his views.Click to expand...
Here we have more of mans logic. Sad.
But second, please tell how to make a "blind man" see if not with scripture (as in "point them out").Click to expand...
We've been telling you that you have the devil's dictionary and trying to correct your bogus definitions from scripture. What WOULD you believe/see?Click to expand... -
skypair said:This is getting more hilarious by the minute! All doesn't mean all? "Whitespace?"
No. Context "rules." The rule is "if common sense makes good sense, seek no other sense." What is it about "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" that you don't believe it means "all?" So what is it about the context of "but that ALL should come to repentance" that you doubt? Do you doubt God's love? His justice? His veracity?
skypairClick to expand... -
skypair said:Can we just change those words a little to reflect what you seem to us to be saying?
"Is [Calvinism] unjust for this? [Calvinism] forbid.
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to [Calvinism]?"Click to expand...
Shame on you. You need to ask forgiveness now.
The verses read as I have posted..
Romans 9 ESV
19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?Click to expand...You're really just saying that Calvinism knows the will of God when it doesn't. Rom 11 speaks about how God has dealt with ISRAEL. I, on the other hand, would have EVERY RIGHT as an individual to question God as to why He won't save me! Justice and fairness are at stake, are they not? In fact, that questioning is the way many are "drawn" to Christ, James!Click to expand...
No. It is obvious the YOU do not understand scripture when it says "plain as day" "For God so loved the WORLD..."Click to expand...
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