Hi Whatever;
I've often wondered why some would rather let others do there speaking for them rather than offering there own witness. I encourage you to allow God to speak through you instead of you telling us about what a dead man said a long time ago. What do you say? What is your witness?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike
Calvinist claim they are elected.
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Dec 28, 2004.
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1. I agree with Spurgeon, and he says it better than I could.
2. Spurgeon has a good reputation among Baptists, and I'm just another anonymous nut so why should you believe me anyway?
3. I don't have time.
4. If there aren't any dead guys who said what I'm saying then I'm probably wrong.
5. If someone won't listen to a dead man then he won't listen to a live man either. -
Hello ILUVLIGHT.
posted 30 December, 2004 09:45
The Lord has provided teachers, find one.
You know what is meant by irresistable grace, why do you try to muddy the water with your obscurantism? All men resist the enemy, we are rebels. Who are these uncircumcised wretches that you hold before us as God's Children in Acts 17:51?
What pleases Him is law and law is subject to His Sovereignity. What God is is law. The law is laid down on us to obey not for God to obey. You think there is something equal in creation and God? God and man under law!
God cannot sin. Not because He keeps the law but the law reflects His character in the presence of sin. With the law He is dealing with law breakers. How can those laws be applicable to the Holy One?
He is the first commandment. He loves Himself beyond measure and revels in His glory. Who is this who can save a man yet determines that the man should go to Hell and casts him away into outer darkness. Do we dare apply the second command and find Him guilty for not loving His neighbour?
It's no better from the Arminian perspective is it? God does not interfer. He just sits there while some awful things happen and does not lift a finger to help as the Samaritan did when he saw need. Guilty is He? You tell Him. About time we had someone plucky enough to put Him back in His box.
johnp. -
I'm not sure why you think this passage is a problem for Calvinists. </font>[/QUOTE]If God does everything without us then there is no responsibility on our part.
I just happen to believe that God in His sovereignty created us with a brain and the ability to make choices. So God through us and in us. God will carry out His part but he is waitng for us to carry out our part.
A true 100 Calvinist would never worry about liberalism because he would claim that is God's peerfect will and therefore he could be lazy and sit by and do nothing. But I have never met a true Calvinist. Maybe 95% but not 100 percent. Even Calvin was not a true Calvinist because he recognized weaknesses in his theology. -
I'm not sure why you think this passage is a problem for Calvinists. </font>[/QUOTE]If God does everything without us then there is no responsibility on our part.
I just happen to believe that God in His sovereignty created us with a brain and the ability to make choices. So God through us and in us. God will carry out His part but he is waitng for us to carry out our part.
A true 100 Calvinist would never worry about liberalism because he would claim that is God's peerfect will and therefore he could be lazy and sit by and do nothing. But I have never met a true Calvinist. Maybe 95% but not 100 percent. Even Calvin was not a true Calvinist because he recognized weaknesses in his theology. </font>[/QUOTE]What you are talking about is hyper-calvinism, not Calvinism. Calvinists do not deny responsibility.
How much of salvation is God's part and how much do we get credit for? -
whatever,
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Without God there is no salvation for man.
Without man's faith in God, there is no salvation for man.
Both statements are equally true! -
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Hi Whatever;
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Not one of these verses suggest that Faith is the gift in Eph 2:8 Notice that in each verse it clearly states thy faith. Faith is the hope for things not seen. Then what is this faith in? Christ because we heard of His loving sacrifice for our sins. Faith comes by hearing and hoping. Christ tells us of Himself in His Word and by hearing this, we hope for the things we heard of and haven't seen. You might say well you wouldn't have unless Christ told us through His word this is true but we wouldn't have faith in Him with out us first trusting in His Words. The faith that saves us, saves us because we trust in His Words.
You have one verse that you mistakenly interpret to say Faith is a gift. I've just showed you 3 verses that clearly say it is our faith that saves us.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike -
Our Salvation is quite similar to that event. We can only be vicarious spectators to the events that took place long ago. It is a completed event, nothing left to do in the performance of the event, the outcome is a "known" to those who lived it, but not to us who only have the recorded details of the event. That is where believing comes into play, we are not real time observers, only vicarious spectators. So having what we do, the knowledge contained in the Word of God, we are confronted with a choice. BELIEVE IT OR NOT!
The word of God tells us "that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life". That is a promise to those who are willing to risk (expose) themselves to the test of belief.
So Whatever, I agree that Salvation is entirely of God, and I believe that it is a completed work of God for those who accept the challenge AND believe.
It will never be a completed work of God for those who do not believe. That is why they are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20). -
You seem to be saying that, if our faith saves us, then that faith cannot have been given to us. I don't think you can prove that. Can you?
BTW, I have more than one verse, but God only has to say it once for me to believe it. -
Your last sentence tells all! You are "closed" to discovering truth.
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ILUVLIGHT
Your original proposition was truly challenging.
Did anyone ever answer it? (It seems that the thread moved away).
In Christ
Wayne -
The idea that Faith is a gift from God is not unigue to Calvinists but can be found in classic Arminians preachers such as John Wesley and Menno Simmons as well as Lutheran theologians.
Jesus saying "thy faith" does not give any argument for those who oppose the orthodox Protestant position. From a practical standpoint it is one's faith but from a theological standpoint as Paul states in Ephesians 2, the faith that person posseses is from God and not something they conjured up. -
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If one believes everything originates from God then he must believe that all sin originates from God too. If faith is from God then lack of faith cannot be from man. The Jews would have seen a big circle and inside that circle is God which pervades everything. God is a part of everything in that circle. Whereas we in America has a different philosophical thinking. We put things in different boxes/categories.
Looking at things from a Jewish point of view by the virure of good and holy there must bad and evil. You cannot have one without the other. It is God who provided the opportunity to sin and the opportunity to do good. If there were only opportunity to do good there would be no sin. Therefore God created sin in that sense.
So would you say God hardened Pharaoh's heart or Pharaoh hardened his heart? Scripture declares both.
Ex. 8:15, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."
Ex. 8:19, "Then the magicians said to Pharaoh , "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened , and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."
Ex. 8:32, "32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."
Ex. 9:7, "Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go."
[ January 01, 2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ] -
To say as some imply that one's faith is not a gift from God contradicts Calvinist, classic Arminian, and Lutheran theology and borders on work salvation. My point is that the belief that Faith is a gift from God is not unique to Calvinism but is the historic belief of all orthodox Protestants. -
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God, through His Word, and by the Holy Spirit gives man every reason to have FAITH, but does not give man THE FAITH.
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