PFT,
Please be clear, I do not see Benjamin "arguing" for the "goodness" of man. I see him attempting to "crack the kernel" of how some see God as "decreeing" and "ordaining" ALL things and how one then says that "evil" is not also explicityly "caused" by God. In my mind, if one holds that God "decrees and ordains" all things, the only logical way sin comes to fruition is by the "free" choice of created beings endowed with the power and authority to do so.
I don't ever see Benjamin man is "good" and thus by implication "deserving" of God's grace and salvation. Rather grace is simply that grace (mercy, hesed).
Just one of those "pesky free willers".
Calvinist Hats On
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Jul 10, 2011.
Page 4 of 5
-
-
Also, nowhere did I say he then claims he deserves God's grace by earning. Let's stick to what I've actually said please.
My point is that when this is wrong, other wrongs follow, such as on this thread. The hatred for Romans 3 is apparent. So is their stance for mans goodness and ability to seek God. They completely reject this and my above post addresses this and shows how others have held this position also; Pharisees, Pelagius, and now others. It's just a new-era of the same thing, it's just in new packaging.
I've been clear on all of this, and would request we stay on track and not add to what I've stated.
I also find it quite interesting they fight against the "none" good part, saying it isn't so, then fight against the word "all" saying it does always mean all. Hmmm.
- Peace -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I think that this discussion is more about Free Will as apposed to Gods decrees & doctrines. I dont personally believe any of my brothers in Christ believe God has authorship in Sin....its just how we look at it.
I would like to believe the illusion of Free Will but I have many questions about it. What is free will? Here is the definition I have found: “God does not assert any power or influence over the will of human beings.” So my Free Will Brethren your telling me its all about 'doing whatever you like because God isn't going to do anything about it'?
Oh my Gosh, just think of the implications if this is true. Your eternal destiny rests in your hands. You make the decision on whether you will go to heaven or hell. Believe and be saved…do not believe and be damned. You get it? If you do not accept Christ as your personal savior, you will go to hell. You have free will and God will not intervene in any decision you make. Yes, He wants you to be saved but he is leaving it all up to you. Why? Because you have free will, my friend! YOU make the call!!
Wow, thats scary but you fellows glory in it. I repeat "SCARY"! -
Also watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eHjQHMWp1M -
-
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
-
It is intellectually fair. Totally.
The denial of mans state, that "none" are good and seeking is a universal indictment upon all of mankind.
I have offered an apology to this error. It is both Pharisaical and Pelagian to state man is "good" that "none" doesn't apply to such, and to defend mans lost state over and above Scripture as something else, which is contrary to the Biblical revelation. The Biblical evidence is clear.
I will tell you what type of rhetoric fans flames; it's when one says I am saying that those I rebut are earning salvation as you've said.
I've never made this statement, and to make it as I have is unfair and intellectually incorrect, and there is no basis for such an erroneous misrepresentation of myself. I also say this in grace. But it is plain wrong to lay that to my charge. -
Here again is my defense of the lost state of man. Nothing I say herein ascribes to anyone earning salvation:
-
God indirectly control of Falls, Direct control over plans to save and redeem! -
-
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Actually its isnt limited to Arminians:thumbsup: -
He did though Know it was to come, and DID predestinaed foreordain HOW He would "deal witht he problem" by sending forth messiah Jesus Christ, whose death would allow the "final solution: tot he problems of evil sin death suffering etc!
The final result will br MUCH greater than the original fall! -
Also, the manner in which you have framed your question seems to make it sound as though we believe that God has never, nor will ever, be the cause of a human's will, or influence that will. I don't understand why you would accept this characature. It is inacurate. I have not read anyone make that claim.
The good thing is that it should be easy for you to recognize the paper tiger you have found. The idea of us conversing on this board indicates that we believe that we can inform and thereby influence another person's will. In fact, if we as Christians have information that might influence unbelievers then we are morally obligated to present such and encouraged to influence them to believe. It is possible that I change my views and decide to do that which I otherwise would not have done. How much more would God be able to inform and inflence man? Yet you propose that we believe God does not nor has ever influenced any man as such?
May I propose a new premise instead of the one you found? Free will is the ability to choose to respond to Him in a self denying way. It is God who informs us (the good news), who draws us (Christ being lifted up), who convicts us of our sin, in faith we deny our selves and turn to Christ.
Can it be the case that God created beings which can choose to deny themselves (at least in one solitary decision) and still maintain His sovereignty? Can it be the case that God can create beings for which God determines and causes everything and still maintain His sovereignty? I think both can be answered in the affirmative. Can God then hold accountable these beings with the consequences being everlasting torment and still maintain His character? In the former scenario, yes. In the latter scenario, I'm not so confident.
Either belief has its problems. I am aware of my belief's problems. I think you would agree that because a belief has logical problems it should not follow that they are therefor disqualified as legitimate candidates for models of reality.
EWF, I would encourage you to read an essay from Dr. Barry Creamer. He is the Professor of Humanities at Criswell College. I have found his podcasts and writings extremely helpful for me to understand the idea of free will. You may also find helpful my story of having to confront the issue of my Pastor being a calvinist. He used my email to start a week long series of shows on KCBI on the subject of Determinism and Freewill. You will also get to learn more about me, which really doesn't mean much other than it seems to help our understanding when we start to emotionally connect to someone's story. Shalom. -
A hyper Calvinist has the integrity to embrace the logical consequences of Calvinism, God is the author of sin, but a Mainstream Calvinist denies this and simply repeats the logical impossiblity, God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, but is not the author of sin. This issue has been at the core of dozens of threads with Calvinists avoiding the obvious by discussing the character and qualifications of whoever their opponent may be.
It seems hopeless. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Brother's ..... this is getting tiring! We can focus & debate on this all day long..... but this is all you really need to know about Predestination & I pray it all falls into place.
Before the beginning of time, God chose a people and has made it so that they will all eventually be LIKE Jesus Christ and WITH Jesus Christ. Thats the biblical defination of Predestination. (Not so bad)
Now, Predestination teaches us that we are totally dependent on the mercy of God. To deny predestination, is to deny the greatest act of pure mercy ever demonstrated. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestined all whom He foreknew.
And here is where people become very confused, and some will insist that God predestines everything we do, even the sin that we commit. No, No, No Not so.....again, Predestination is only concerned with the destiny of the elect. Nothing else!
-
-
Page 4 of 5