Actualy, I would dispute that and say that every occasion can replace the word "pull" or "drag".
For instance, consider Jn 18:10 when the same word is used.
It is in reference to pulling or drawing a sword from its scabbard.
Jn 21:6 used the same word for pulling, dragging, or drawing in the fishing net.
Acts 16:19 is the most obvious, when Paul and Silas were drug through the marketplace.
I would say that the only leg you have to stand is is Jn 6:44 that could possibly mean what you want it to mean.
All the rest mean "pull" which back in the day "draw" connoted that as well.
What's pitiful is that you actually believe that 1st Jn. 2:2 is "meaningless" according to what you wrote in post 15
You wish. You really need to throw that logic of your's in the trash.
If this were true you would have countered with those scriptures from the rest of scripture inorder to prove your point. You didn't do that I suspect because you didn't have anything but your logical opinion
Oh, yeah, sure.... Of course you can explain my Logic. I do not use logic I use scripture. This is what botherd you most.
MB
I believe nothing of the sort.
Try reading post 15 and see to whom I am applying meaningless to.
Try to understand the context of what I am saying and posing as a theoretical framework.
Try...
Yeah... logic is so overrated... who needs it?
Here is the problem (which I'm sure you will either not read, misread, misunderstand, or simply ignore).
My approach to Scripture is not one which simply involves prooftexting.
For example, when asking about my views of eschatology, I can't just point you to a few passages in the Bible.
I would have to take you to the grand narrative of Scripture and allow the story of the Bible to unfold.
In this case, I employ a missional reading of the Scriptural story understanding God is on mission to bless the nations.
That theme I believe is picked up in John's language through the employment of the word "world" although he means by it every tribe, tongue, and language.
Naturally, you would understand a man's writing to improve and be more precise as he ages and matures in his writing abilities.
Thus that kind of language (tribe, tongue, language) is found in Rev. where earlier writings John employs "world" generically.
Therefore, it is my biblical theology and not my systematic theology that is gauging my interpretation.
Understand?
I'm not bothered by the fact that you "use scripture."
Of course what you mean by that is that you use your interpretation of Scripture.
You interpret things narrowly and have little time to consider other possible (and more likely meanings) than the ones you've contrived for yourself.
Thus you reject logic (something good interpretation will agree with).
So abandon logic and cling to the use of eisegesis (justified as "use scripture").
It is a false mantra lacking clarity and reality.
Ok, let's say it does means to pull or drag such as a fishing net. Does a fisherman always capture every fish he pulls or drags in? No, and this is shown in scripture.
Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. 5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net. 6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.
The disciples did not capture every fish they dragged or pulled in, the net brake and some escaped. There is a spiritual application shown here if you will receive it.
This is not how you study words and their meanings.
And lest we forget, the word in question was not even used in Lk 5.
I am really at a loss for how to respond to this.
There are so many logical errors here I am not sure where to begin.
At the basic level... "to pull" or "drag" or "draw" a fishing net has nothing (absolutely nothing) to do with what is pulled.
Further, the word has zero to do with the result of what is being pulled.
It is only a word that conveys a simple action.
And the reality is, the word is used more of pulling people or swords than it is of fishing, so that is a non sequitor.
Questioning my qualifications and character is without merit, a logical fallacy as far as defending your assertions.
The lexicons include those two meanings.
I did a study of every usage by John of the word and found that these two meanings fit every usage.
False on three fronts, Jerome pointed out that the OED said it meant attract over 400 years ago.
Strike one.
John 12:32 uses the word to indicate attract all men, strike two.
The Septuagint uses this same word to say God draws by lovingkindness, strike three.
Calvinism relies on redefining the meanings of words to pour their manmade doctrine into the text, hence draw means drag, choice means non-choice, and world means whatever fits the Calvinist template.
It is a joke.
Well you are the one who wrote it. I'm not a mind reader so I have no idea what you really think. You did say 1st. Jn 2:2 was meaningless. And said it did not support the fact that Christ died for everyone's sins.
You don't need logic to understand scripture all we need is God. I always consider Him and His word. You should too.
Well you are right here. I won't read the rest of what you wrote. Simply carrying on a conversation with you is completely undesireable.
MB
Yes...The sins of the Covenant children were PIF....yes....
If we were agreed on whose sin was paid for...we could agree.
I see the truth of the sins of the elect, in particular as actually paid in full.
When you try to say that all mens sins are paid for[potentially]
we differ.
Yes......all sins must be punished......in the sinner,or in the substitute
When Jesus dies for His people[elect sheep] their sins are paid in full as Jesus undergo's the wrath for them....it is finished!
When I see the blood...I will passover you. 1cor 5:7
For those outside of Jesus...the wrath of God is revealed at judgement day,they have no propitiation to turn away the wrath...so they undergo that wrath as scripture says ...without mercy.
justice takes place when all sin is paid for by God's righteous judgement.
If all sin was not PIF at the cross, death and the curse will remain for all creation outside the "elect".
Yet we know all creation groans in anticipation of redemption.
Well okay...that is also an important consideration....my first thought would be that at judgement day this sin cursed earth and all remnants of the curse will be destroyed and cast into hell...the earth and the evil works burnt up... and the new heaven and new earth which we have entered as citizens will be manifest;
for the non elect....yes they remain in the realm of death...seperated fron God....under the curse of death...but second death;
Jesus does refer to the goats as cursed
WD,
I cannot help too much with this as I am constantly re-examing this topic of the ...already/not yet
in reference to the kingdom.
I believe the Kingdom is now.....growing and expanding as the gospel spreads worldwide to all men[jn 3:16]
How much we are to have an effect here and now....how and why we[local churches] are coming short of Kingdom responsibilites...how can we better "occupy" until he comes?
I am currently considering some of the Ot prophetic passages..seeing what they tell us about the conduct of the gentiles who come to the light.
Thank you Icon for the most recent posts in this discussion.
This is how civil and mutually respectful dialogue should happen, even knowing that one is some distance theologically from the other.
QF,
Believers have real enemies to contend with.....the world, the flesh ,and the devil.
I would like it more if we could work to upgrade the BB....into a fountain of grace,instruction and edification....
A message board has it's ups and downs...new persons come in ,and want to lash out at "error"...we are all susceptible to getting over-heated and blowing a fuse.
When error is perceived...it is correct to offer correction. Sometimes if our emotions are not in check...we can be harsh or over-react..in a fleshly way, when trying to offer the correction however.
I have sinned in this way....and I have noticed that quite possibly some others have as well....maybe, just maybe all of us for sure.
If our internal thoughts were made manifest on the board...we would all be guilty for sure.....like Paul in Romans 7 .....of wretched man that I am...not oh wretched man that I was:laugh:
QF....you have a certain kind of personality...that comes from being in an academic setting
[ although the teachers lounge can be a caldron of lewd conversation from time to time].
Also if you have walked with the Lord for some time you will exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.
Some of us are in different situations. That does not excuse rough, or base behaviour...but sometimes like Lot ....our souls are vexed with the conversation of the wicked.
The world wants to ...rub off on us.
We must watch unto prayer.
Many have expressed this same concern in recent weeks..and some small progress has been made. If it grows, the BB will progress toward being a worthwhile place to edify all who come in.