Non-Calvinists teach that unbelieving men reject God despite God's love and gracious provisions, making those who remain in unbelief truly horrible, deserving of condemnation and inexcusable for their rebellion.
Calvinists, on the other hand, teach that unbelievers are unbelievers because God doesn't really 'love' them or desire them to come to faith thus He refuses to grant them faith. This gives unbelievers the perfect excuse for their unbelief. What better excuse is there for an unbeliever than, "God didn't grant me faith?"
So, which is worse? Someone who has everything they need to believe but chooses not to do...who rebells despite God's loving provisions and gracious invitation, ORRRR someone who rebells because he was born that way and wasn't provided all that was needed to believe?
The first is obviously much worse than the second, yet Calvinists are constantly accusing non-Calvinists of having too high of a view of man??? It seems as if they are the ones elevating the view of man above what scriptures actually teach.
Calvinists have a "higher" view of mankind than Non-Calvinists
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jan 1, 2012.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Wa...wa...what, shakes head, rather where did you get the part about Calvinists? :confused:
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporterplain_n_simple said: ↑John Calvin should not even be an issue, he murdered a man when he rejected his writings. That is not the spirit or mind of Christ. Good fruit does not come from a bad tree. Saying someone is "non-calvinist" gives a misplaced sense of acknowlegement to John Calvin. Calvins teachings deserve nothing but exposure to his demon-inspired take on God's holy word. As a follower of Jesus (notice I did not say non-calvinist) I do not condemn anyone because of their rejection of Christ.
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plain_n_simple said: ↑John Calvin should not even be an issue, he murdered a man when he rejected his writings.Click to expand...
1. Calvin was not in charge.
2. It wasn't over his writing.
3. Calvin tried to change the death to a different, less painful death, but was unable to get that because he wasn't in charge.
That is not the spirit or mind of Christ. Good fruit does not come from a bad tree. Saying someone is "non-calvinist" gives a misplaced sense of acknowlegement to John Calvin. Calvins teachings deserve nothing but exposure to his demon-inspired take on God's holy word. As a follower of Jesus (notice I did not say non-calvinist) I do not condemn anyone because of their rejection of Christ.Click to expand... -
Winman said: ↑Yes, Calvinists believe men are born with a sinful nature through no fault or choice on their part and are unable to do anything but reject God's grace. Their sin is simply existing.Click to expand...
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Skandelon said: ↑The labels of "Calvinist", "Arminian, or "non-Calvinist" are in reference to a particular theological soteriology, and should not be confused with a blanket affirmation of any one individual (as many different individuals have held to these differing views throughout history). Thus, such a charge is misplaced.Click to expand...
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jbh28 said: ↑No, they did choose because that's all they wanted to do. What you are seem to be implying(correct me if I'm wrong) is that Calvinist believe men sin against their will.Click to expand...
This is exactly how many Calvinists view the unelect. They often directly say the spiritually dead are like a corpse.
You will counter that they could choose, but they can only choose death. If this is so, then they are not a corpse, because a corpse can make no choice at all, to be either dead or alive.
You reject the corpse analogy. They can make choices, but they will always choose their desire, and their desire will always be against God. But where do the scriptures say this? It is one thing to say man does not desire or seek God, it is quite another to say man is not ABLE to desire or seek God. Do the scriptures say man is not ABLE to desire God?
What of Cornelius? The scriptures say he feared God, and prayed always. But he was not saved, neither did he have the Holy Spirit. God heard his prayers and sent an angel to him. The angel told Cornelius to send for Peter. Was Cornelius able to obey? So, where do the scriptures say or show a man is not able to desire, believe, or obey God? -
plain_n_simple said: ↑As a follower of Jesus (notice I did not say non-calvinist) I do not condemn anyone because of their rejection of Christ.
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OldRegular said: ↑It is not within your job description to condemn anyone. That task belongs to God and God alone.Click to expand...
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Earth said: ↑Im a Calvinist.....bluntly, are you questioning my salvation .....give me a yes or a no answer to this Plain & Simple (live up to your moniker)Click to expand...
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12strings said: ↑-Calvinists also believe this, we simply believe that even those who believe would also be in this category were it not for the electing grace of God.Click to expand...
Mmm...you should know better than this. Calvinist do not teach this (bolded section), at least not the ones I know.Click to expand...
We would say God does in desire (revealed will) them to come to repentance (since the bible says that), but that he has not ordained (decretive will) to grant them the faith that they would not have produced on their own for some purpose we cannot fully understand.Click to expand...
According to Rom. 1, people are without excuse because they do not worship God, even though he has revealed himself in nature. ALL people choose this path, as none seek God (Rom. 3). God is not unjust to punish those who reject him...he was under no obligation to save ANY of us who rebelled against him. But he, in love, predestined us for adoption as sons.Click to expand...
Paul is NOT saying that no one worships God. He is saying that no one is righteous according to the demands of the law. All have fallen short. But those who are REALLY righteous are so by faith. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness." So, on the one hand Paul claims that 'no one is righteous, no not one' and in the next chapter says that Abraham was righteous. How can that be? Read Romans 3:20-21 and you will see the shift from the law of righteousness to righteousness by faith. So, men are without excuse because they have everything they need to acknowledge God by faith. There is nothing preventing anyone from acknowledging God as God. If there was then they would have a defense.
1. I suppose we would have to have a long discussion about Adam's headship and representation of humanity for this one, but that's for another day...Click to expand...
2. Your argument sounds like an argument a defense attorney would use for a serial killer by claiming "mental illness." I believe that a killer who is so far gone as to have lost the ability to make good decisions is STILL responsible for their crimes, and deserving of punishment.Click to expand... -
Skandelon said: ↑Like I said, he doesn't REALLY will them to come to Him...he doesn't give them what they need to believe and thus they have the perfect excuse for their unbelief. That was my contention and your qualification affords the same contention.Click to expand...
I'm fine discussing the headship of Adam over all mankind if you are willing to acknowledge the headship of Christ over all those same people. You want Adam to represent all mankind in his rebellion without having Christ represent all mankind in his provision, which is not biblical. (that is unless lean more toward being a four pointer)Click to expand...
Think about this. You are making my point. In our justice system, we declare men "NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY." That means we deem these people in our society who have no control over the way they behave as 'not as guilty' as those who willfully and purposefully choose to commit a crime. In the Calvinistic system, unbelievers are more like those who are 'insane' in that they are unable to do otherwise, where as in the non-cal system they are more like those who commit a premeditated crime.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporterplain_n_simple said: ↑You question yourself. I did not. If you worry about what another says about your salvation, you might not be so firm in your belief. It's that plain and simple.Click to expand...
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporterplain_n_simple said: ↑You question yourself. I did not. If you worry about what another says about your salvation, you might not be so firm in your belief. It's that plain and simple.Click to expand...
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