It would be difficult to align that with Paul when he says not to suffer a man to remain unmarried if he desires a woman sexually. My marriage ended out of no sin of my own. I don't have a wife, as God's covenant with her and me no longer exists. Hence, me marrying now would not be ungodly or sinful. And, if I were a pastor, I'd still be the husband of one wife.
Can a Divorced Man be a Pastor/ Preacher?
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by dianetavegia, Aug 8, 2003.
Page 5 of 10
-
[/QB][/QUOTE]As for the context, the betrothal custom is entirely within the Jewish context--which is why the so-called Matthean exception clauses are not included in the parallel passages in the other gospels. This is further corroborated by the ability of women to get a divorce in the parallel accounts, which was denied Jewish women under OT law and not included in the Matthean account.
As for "proving" this theory, neither it nor any of the competing theories interpreting the Matthean exceptions can be "proved," except perhaps beyond a reasonable doubt by a preponderance of the evidence. Obviously, I'm persuaded by the evidence that the reading that is not as easy on the flesh is correct: the one consistent with the Markan and Lucan parallels. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Brother,
Very well presented. Thank you so much for not entering into the hateful type of dialogue that often shows up on these boards. You have consistently stayed away from subjective, emotional phrases and I appreciate the spirit in which you debate.
When I ask for proof, I merely mean scriptural support. It seems to me that you have a theory explaining a plain scripture, rather than a plain scripture explaining a theory. You build a very good case for "Betrothal" (if the thing is scriptural in the first place.) The following verses show clearly the the motives for God's divorcing of Israel are abandonment and ADULTRY. Nothing about a betrothal period in the word adultry.
KJV Jeremiah 3:6-8
6 The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of Divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Surely God does not hold his people to a higher standard than he does Himself!
Adultry is a specific type of fornication. But fornication would include other forms such as beastiality, sodomy, pornography, etc. These sins would certainly be grounds for divorce even though they are not technically "adultry". As I said before there is nothing in the context to even hint of a betrothal period "fornication". I realize that Matthew contains truth that other gospels don't but we can't jump at the hyper-dispensationalist notion that Matthew is only applicable to the Jews. Instead we should take the Bible in its totality. There are four gospels for a reason. Only by reading all four, for example, can we find the complete inscription on the cross, "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."
In Christ Lacy -
Many Godly men have been faced with the ultimatum from their wives, "Leave the ministry or lose me!" We ought to obey God rather than men. If we forsake a sister, a father, children, our own life, etc. we are praised. But if we forsake a wife for my [Christ's] name's sake, we are in sin. Could someone please explain the following verses in which God guarantees PREMIUM rewards for one who forsakes his wife for the kingdom's sake. (And please don't tell me that "forsake" and "left" means that she died.) (Also remember that the Bible has no notion of what America calls "legal separation.") If "Left" and "Forsaken" do not mean "Divorced", then what do they mean?
KJV Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
KJV Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
KJV Mark 10:29-30
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
KJV Luke 18:29-30
29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
I Cor. 7:10-11 says And unto the married I command, yet, not I, but the Lord , Let not the wife depart from her husband. But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband and let not the husband put away his wife.
1 Cor. 7:39 - The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth....
Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it....
Matthew 19:6 - Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Malachi 2:15b-16a - Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away [divorce].
There are no unsinful reasons for divorce. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
After all, God was the one who instituted the family back in the Garden of Eden, and commanded the Israelites to teach His ways and His words to their children when the stand up, when they lie down, when they sit down to eat..(Deut.6:6-9).
Those verses are saying instead that Jesus must have the pre-eminence in the lives of those who profess to know him, to follow him, to obey him, and to believe him, otherwise, all those professings are just "hot air" and chest thumpings. No substance at all. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
BUT if he gets divorced while already pastoring ? Out the door I go. -
ABANDONMENT - In 1 Corinthians 7:15, we read that if one spouse abandons the other, that the one who remains is no longer bound by the marital covenant, and divorce is permitted. Abandonment would be a departure from the family, with clear intentions not to return.
ABUSE - The third issue, abuse, is more difficult to demonstrate with a Bible verse. With God's clear heart for the oppressed and the abused throughout the Bible, I find it hard to maintain any understanding of words like "justice" and "love" if God directed a woman who was being physically abused to remain in that situation. I think there are few things more heinous than a man who physically abuses a woman. However, when abuse become the norm in a marriage, it becomes clear that, while the abuser is there physically, he has nonetheless abandoned his spouse, and, as set forth above, abandonment is a clear reason for marriage to end.
I would also suggest that a pattern of child abuse would constitute grounds for divorce. Such action, in my view, shatters the marriage covenant at its foundation.
With these things said, healing can happen in any marriage and in any heart, as God hates divorce because it destroys lives. But that must begin with the repentance of the one who did the abusing, adultery, or abandoning. Without that repentance, the perpetrator cannot overcome the sins that shatterred the marriage. Unless they have been overcome, there is no healing. Unless they have been healed, there is no marriage. -
-
It would be difficult to align that with Paul when he says not to suffer a man to remain unmarried if he desires a woman sexually. My marriage ended out of no sin of my own. I don't have a wife, as God's covenant with her and me no longer exists. Hence, me marrying now would not be ungodly or sinful. And, if I were a pastor, I'd still be the husband of one wife. </font>[/QUOTE]Since a marriage covenant ends only when one spouse dies, if God's covenant with you two no longer exists, then of course you are free to remarry, being a widower. -
-
-
The only exception Jesus gave was for unfaithfulness during the Jewish betrothal.
Jesus DID NOT say that. You're implying it via interpretation, which I can respect, but that's not conclusive enough to be doctrine, only interpretation.
Assuming that you're correct, you're forgetting that a betrothed couple in Jewish tradition were still husband and wife. They could have sex, etc etc, they simply did not have a home together. (betrothal is simply the time between the wedding and moving in together). But when Jesus talks about a bill of divorcements, he doesn't specify that it must be before the couple comes together (during the betrothal period). Jesus never mentions the betrothal perios in regards to divorce. -
You're right--explicitly speaking he never mentioned the betrothal or stated that adultery was grounds for divorce.
-
-
-
Diane </font>[/QUOTE]Forgive me, but I didnot read all 7 pages.
Here is my finding in Scripture:
NO! A divoriced man cannot be a Preacher nor a Pastor of a church. No it's not the unpardonable sin, but in reality it is the consquenses of the sin that is this far reaching. He is forgiven of the sin, not the consquenses.
-
Justified. I wanted to clarify that the original quote is from someone else and we started a thread to discuss this. If anyone questions how I feel... please see pages one and two of this thread. Those are NOT my words! Just wanted to verify!
Diane -
-
I have little use for the "original greek" for exactly this reason. When the "Original English" speaks to us so plainly, why run to "the greek". If you dig around in that junk long enough you can "prove" any position.
Lacy -
Yes he can!
there is No scripture against it unless
this divorcee gets remarried - then unless his previous spouse is dead - he is disqualified
Divorce is not a sin - it is a sad thing, and it more easily leads to sin - but it is not sin
Page 5 of 10