Oh!...
And BTW Craig. Just because you are a theistic evolutionist, I would not be so disingenuos as to discount everything you say based on your warped view of Creation. Unlike many, (including yourself) who do that very thing to we who hold to KJVo.
In HIS service;
Jim
Can an Evolutionist be Saved?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mike Gascoigne, Dec 13, 2004.
Page 15 of 16
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Alas, our spiritual enemy continues to succeed in dividing God's church over this issue. It's perfectly plain that the earth is more than 10,000 years old, just on how much the volcano under Hawaii has moved over the millions of years, just on the overall accumulation of radioactive decay products around the world, and so forth and so forth; it is also perfectly plain that God's word is our hope of salvation, and our infallible guide in matters of faith and doctrine, but . . . when properly interpreted.
Satan merely divides God's church over the interpretation issues, and this is merely another one of them. Too bad, of course, that some people equate open mindedness to evidence as being traiterous to God's truth when the exact opposite applies. -
I personally have always leaned toward YEC, but I'm not nearly so bold as to say my interpretation of the word "days" in Genesis MUST mean 24 hours. While I think there's evidence to back up the 24 hour concept, I realize that it's possible that the word translated "days" means something more than 24 hours.
I would not dare accuse someone who interprets the verse differently of disagreeing with "the clear word of God." There are plenty of disagreements among theologians about a lot of things in the Bible. I've read good arguments on both sides, which makes me think we don't have a "clear" understanding of some of these issues.
If God created the universe in 6 seconds, minutes, days, or "ages"... He still created it. I don't think Craig or UT believe otherwise. Whether God created the animals fully formed or brought them into existence over a period of time... he still did it.
I believe everyone in this discussion has a saving faith in Christ, and also believes God is responsible for the existence of the Earth and all that is in it. I think we need to remember to treat our brothers and sisters with some respect, even if we don't agree with some of their ideas. -
Therefore, whether you admit it or even recognize it, YES- your philosophical bias. It is an assumption (and biblically speaking a bad one) to assume that creation was solely or even primarily the result of purely natural processes.
BTW, please cite the survey that shows that 99.9% of PhD scientists believe in macroevolution and an old earth. The last part I would more readily believe than the first.
It doesn't even matter if evolution turns out to be true. Science departments in most universities are not encouraging critical thought. They do not encourage students to question the theory of evolution nor explore other possibilities. It is taught as fact. "Period. End of discussion." Truth is obviously not the goal when genuine, meaningful criticism of the premises and assumptions of a theory are dogmatically suppressed.
Again, if a trustworthy person told me that they personally caused a ravine behind my house but a geologist came and told me that it occurred by natural forces... It really wouldn't matter how well the geologist explained it, the eyewitness testimony would win out.
Genesis 1-11 gives no indication of being a figure of speech. In fact the account of separating the waters above from the waters below is very specific. The account of fish and birds being created on the same day and before the land dwelling animals is in direct contradiction to evolution that says land dwelling animals gave rise to flying reptiles that gave rise to birds. If these things did not occur then it they are lies- not allegories.
BTW, it is interesting that you compare this debate to a debate of morals. If we are no more than animals... the products of millions of years of evolution then we are not accountable to a creator. If naturalism is true then these things you mention can be nothing less than normal natural impulses.
I oppose these things on the same grounds I oppose evolution (though I do not morally equate them). The Bible literally condemns sexual perversion ultimately because we have a responsibility to obey our Creator.
Your mockery of the Bible however is very telling.
BTW, according to evolution, God didn't make man smarter than the monkeys. A natural process of mutation, adaptation, and natural selection did that. God was at best a hopeful bystander. -
UT posted an article here some place that was supposed to answer creationists' objections to the dating methods. It did nothing if not affirm what creationists have been arguing. Evolutionists affirm chemical dating by the geologic column and the geologic column by chemical dating and both by the fossils found in them (except for the significant number of anomalies which are tossed out because they showed up where evolution didn't expect them)... creating a classic case of circular reasoning.
The bottom line is that you look down on those of us who disagree with you. I have reasons that have nothing to do with ignorance. I realize and admit that I am making philosophical, faith-based choices on which to found my arguments about origins. Why won't you simply do the same?
You don't have to believe that God created the world in 6 days less than 10K years ago but when you mock and deny the possibility you demonstrate close-mindedness and, frankly, deny the attributes of God as taught in the Bible.
I don't know your reasons for believing evolution. If I had to guess, I would suspect your education or the influence of someone you trust.
I didn't reject evolution so much because of creationism as because of evolution itself. When you strip away all of the technical jargon and imaginative explanations... and boil it down to just the facts and the logic... there simply isn't alot there. The first and only necessary failure of evolution IMO is its premise of naturalism. The Bible doesn't teach a purely naturalistic history of God's interaction with mankind. In fact as I have stated before, our faith and hope are built on a purely supernatural event... something no less miraculous than a 6 day creation. A man who was literally dead literally rose from the dead.
Further, we are promised a home in heaven that is superior to this natural realm. Where did heaven come from? Did it evolve? If the creation of heaven wasn't too much for God to accomplish by sheer will, why must we believe that the universe is in order to be rational in your view? -
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"Evolutionists affirm chemical dating by the geologic column and the geologic column by chemical dating and both by the fossils found in them (except for the significant number of anomalies which are tossed out because they showed up where evolution didn't expect them)... creating a classic case of circular reasoning."
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If the above every happened it must correspond to a real case. Please cite a specific case of the above claim. -
Are you sure that you are not using the word “physicist” a little bit loosely? Your description of your friend strongly suggests that this man is much less than a scientist and that he has virtually no formal education. If I am wrong, post his name and the university from at which he earned his doctorate in physics, and tell us by whom he is employed as a physicist.
If you would like, I can post the names of hundreds of real physicists with real doctorates from real universities who are currently employed as physicists in prestigious positions, ALL of whom KNOW that the earth is billions of years old, and NONE of whom have been brainwashed.
</font>[/QUOTE]I could tell you but I'd have to kill you. As the old saying goes. I'm just kidding Craig. Actually, he has two earned Phds from two major university one in astronomical physics (of some kind, I'm not sure the exact name) and another in some kind of mathematical physics; and he is on the leading edge of a major military research program. For obvious reasons, I cannot tell you who he is, but I hope you can take my word for it. He works with a team of Phd level scientists who are all working in research several of which are geologists, astrophysicists, electronics experts, laser and optical experts among others. Surprisingly, several from the group are all YEC and are Christians and they are not silent about it when they work with others.
The difference between them and you is, they believe that the our view of the world and the evidence cannot properly be determined when the creation involved supernatural powers beyond our comprehension.
These guys are privy to some of the best research data and have the best equipment in the world to use for their experiments. They do not sit around writing papers, they produce things based on their theories.
If you think these guys are "loose" you have another thing coming Craig, I can guarantee you that.
What most people don't realize is that a good portion of the cutting edge technology in this world is based on hand-me-downs from the military. For example, the Global positioning system was paid for by congress as long as the military agreed to allow civilians to use its "inaccurate" C-code (Commercial Code which repeats itself bout 100 times per second and runs at 1 Mhz) as compared to the military code "I" which runs at 10 Mhz and repeats encryptian cycle every two weeks.
By allowing the civilians to use the low resolution, congress agreed to fund the multi-billion dollar project. Now we find GPS in almost everything and will be seeing it in every cell-phone being sold from this year onward (of course, for homeland security reasons--or so we are told).
This is just an example of a project these different groups do and the GPS system was designed back in the 70's, so you can imagine what is being worked on in 2005. -
Amen brother Phillip; PREACH IT!
Craig;
I can't answer your questions, nor do I know the right questions to ask you. But I PERSONALLY know someone who does. Here are his questions for you;
Job 38:1
¶ Then the LORD answered Job(Craig) out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 38:4
¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11
And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:12
¶ Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Job 38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14
It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
Job 38:15
And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
Job 38:16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17
Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18
Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
Job 38:19
Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
Job 38:20
That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Job 38:21
Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:22
Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23
Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24
By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
Job 38:25
¶ Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Job 38:26
To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
Job 38:27
To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 38:28
Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29
Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
Job 38:30
The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Job 38:33
Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34
Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35
Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36
Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37
Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
Job 38:38
When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
Job 38:39
Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40
When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
Job 38:41
Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
I'll be interested to see your answers to Him.
In HIS service;
Jim -
AMEN Brother AV1611JIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There's the EVIDENCE. ...and Look who's Words it is.
In a courtroom, only a person who was a witness to the event could make this testimony. Not someone who just absolutely "knows" it has to be that way. Too bad science cannot learn from the legal system; which may not be perfect, but I would rather be "tried" by a judge than a scientist, for ANY reason. -
¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11
And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?Click to expand...
Just once, read Job 38 and interpret every verse in a strictly literal manner and see for yourself how doing so destroys the majesty of this portion of Scripture that that our infinite God so graciously blessed us with. And then consider how interpreting Genesis 1 – 11 in a strictly literal manner does the same thing to that passage.
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Oh Brother! :rolleyes:
I should have seen that one coming. Ya' got me Craig.
God didn't REALLY mean that we are but puny humans and have no way of knowing how He created the earth and all of creation with it without Him telling us about it.
He didn't really mean to imply in this passage that we are fools to think we know so much. :rolleyes:
I just would like you to one time quit with your dodging and arrogance and answer the question.
If you know so much about creation and how God did it, WERE YOU THERE?
God was. He laid it out plain for us to see. In Gen 1-3. Literally.
Strange you would ignore verse 4.
That one, my friend, is the clincher isn't it? So you dodge it.
I fell for that one alright brother. Ya' got me. :rolleyes:
In HIS service;
Jim -
If you know so much about creation and how God did it, WERE YOU THERE?Click to expand...
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Oh!
Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Were you there when they nailed him to the tree?
Were you there when they nailed him to the tree?
Oh!
Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they nailed him to the tree?
Were you there when they pierced him in the side?
Were you there when they pierced him in the side?
Oh!
Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they pierced him in the side?
Were you there when they laid him in the tomb?
Were you there when they laid him in the tomb?
Oh!
Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they laid him in the tomb?
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Craig,
Just what would make you think that Genesis chapters 1-3 would be interpreted? Literally, allegorically, or by some other method? If God said He created the earth in six days (YOM, in Hebrew), why else not take Him at His Word? Secondly, why would someone interpret the first chapters of Genesis in a way that doesn't make God look like He is lying? Just a question, not a start to a debate.......
[ January 29, 2005, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: LRL71 ] -
Just how do you think that Genesis chapters 1-3 should be translated? Literally, allegorically, or by some other method? If God said He created the earth in six days (YOM, in Hebrew), why else not take Him at His Word? Secondly, why would someone interpret the first chapters of Genesis in a way that doesn't make God look like He is lying? Just a question, not a start to a debate.......Click to expand...
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^^^^
Nice dodge.
Methinks you need to 'think clearly'; denying God's Word makes men liars. -
Just how do you think that Genesis chapters 1-3 should be translated?Click to expand...
Literally, allegorically, or by some other method?Click to expand...
If God said He created the earth in six days (YOM, in Hebrew), why else not take Him at His Word?Click to expand...
Secondly, why would someone interpret the first chapters of Genesis in a way that doesn't make God look like He is lying?Click to expand...
Just a question, not a start to a debate.......Click to expand...
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Originally posted by LRL71:
^^^^
Nice dodge.
Methinks you need to 'think clearly'; denying God's Word makes men liars.Click to expand...
I believe that anyone who will take the time to compare my posts with your questions will see quite readily enough which one of us was thinking clearly—and which one of us was not. And you should know better than to confuse grossly inadequate interpretations of Genesis 1 -11 with what God Himself has said. To make a careful and prayerful study over a period of many years of what God has said and to share this knowledge with others is not a sin but a Christian virtue.
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^^^
Sounds like a 'neo-orthodox' answer to me...... whatever one thinks in his heart is right. :rolleyes:
Especially if one thinks he still gets revelations from God :rolleyes:
As to your earlier comments, perhaps you didn't pay attention to my revised comments as to how you would approach the 'interpretation' of Genesis chapters 1-3, or through chapter 11 (not, as to my earlier mis-statement of 'translated', as we both would agree the 1995 NASB updated edition is pretty darn good). You dodged my question: are you going to make your interpretation allegorical, historical-grammatical (known as literal and narrative), or otherwise?
As a good personal friend of mine (swaimj) had stated earlier in another post on another subject, these words I would think apply to Craig:
So, my fellow BB readers/posters, what is the evidence that YEC's are ignorant, emotionally unhinged people? Craig's-by-the-Sea empty, unproven assertions.
What is the evidence that Craig-by-the-sea is an elitist? His words.
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