Can Luke 17:37 Be Translated Better in KJV?

[Hark]

Can Luke 17:37 be translated Better in the KJV?

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

At this link above is Strong's Concordance; left column has the Books of the Bible & blue numbers listed in each book for chapters. You can scroll down in left column to Luke & click on 17. Then scroll to the bottom of the main page to the last verse where the Greek in blue is above the verse 37 in English. Click on the third long blue Greek from mirroring the end of that last verse & see what that Greek term "sunago" is as defined.

Then compare with the last Greek text mirroring the end of that verse in blue & click on that to see how "aetos" is defined.

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. KJV

Compare to the modern Bibles;

Luke 17:37 “Where, Lord?” they asked . He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” ~ NIV

Luke 17:37 And responding, they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.” NASB

Luke 17:37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” ESV

Interesting note; the RSV has it as eagles but the New Revised Standard changed it.

Luke 17:37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.” RSV

Luke 17:37 Then they asked him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” NRSV

There is a teaching out that that is applying Luke 17:26-37 as meaning only the bad people are removed. Some may even apply this to what happens at the end of the great tribulation.

But sunago informs us that the ones taken are received with hospitality & by wing-like flight too.

It looks like most of these modern versions did not translate from the Greek but looked at the KJV and changed it from the English.

With the false teaching out there that there is no pre great tribulation rapture & that it happens at the end of the great tribulation, I can see why they changed the Bible to that effect, but the Greek says otherwise.

Can Luke 17:37 be better translated in the KJV to show that meaning of being received with hospitality & by wing-like flight too, or not? When reading Luke 17:26-37 in context, I understand it to mean rapture of the saints before the great tribulation. I mean, really, those who remain, destruction falls on them so hardly removing the bad guys. Somehow I think modern Bibles derived that errant translation of vultures because of not inferring the body as the body of Christ rather than as a corpse for why they injected vulture in there.

 

[Logos1560]

Can Luke 17:37 be translated Better in the KJV?


It looks like most of these modern versions did not translate from the Greek but looked at the KJV and changed it from the English.

Would you also suggest that the KJV did not translate from the Greek but looked at the Geneva Bible or the Bishops' Bible and changed it or combined it from the English or do you only offer your subjective assumptions or speculations about other English Bibles?

1560 Geneva Bible
And they answered, and said to him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will also the eagles resort.

1568 Bishops' Bible
And they answered, and said unto him: Where Lord? He said unto them: Wheresoever the body shallbe, thither will also the Eagles be gathered together

 

[Hark]

Would you also suggest that the KJV did not translate from the Greek but looked at the Geneva Bible or the Bishops' Bible and changed it or combined it from the English or do you only offer your subjective assumptions or speculations about other English Bibles?

1560 Geneva Bible
And they answered, and said to him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will also the eagles resort.

1568 Bishops' Bible
And they answered, and said unto him: Where Lord? He said unto them: Wheresoever the body shallbe, thither will also the Eagles be gathered together

How much is it an assumption if you cannot prove where those other modern Bibles got vulture from in the Greek? How is it that in context Luke 17:26-37 proves it is not vultures & it is not the bad guys being removed as that false teaching exists today?

 

[Conan]

 

[Conan]

"KJV Only" advocates refuted!

 

[Hark]

"KJV Only" advocates refuted!

You should start another thread on that and not go off topic further.

The thread is about how Luke 17:37 can be better translated or not in the KJV to convey how those are taken by wing-like flight & with hospitality as the Strong's Concordance of the Greek defines. When read in context, I understand it as rapture of the saints but it seems verse 17 could have been translated better, but then again, on careful noting how "sunago" is only part of the long Greek word that is translated, perhaps the long Greek word containing sunago defines sunago the way it is written in English that the Strong's Concordance does not have definitions for in relation to sunago.

 

[Van]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is, but the Greek word has been translated as eagles or vultures.

The question posed in verse 37 seems to be where will be the judgment, and the answer seems to be the judgement location will be obvious.

So is the idea of "body" a reference to the corpse and thus vulture food, or a reference to a living body and thus will be gathered by eagles?

Luke seems to use the Greek word both ways, to refer to a dead body and to a living body (i.e. your body). The majority view is the usage here in verse 37, refers to a dead body.

The majority view seems to see verse 37 as a parallel to Matthew 24:28, where the word for body clearly refers to a dead body, and thus vultures rather than eagles. But to proclaim the alternate (KJV) view is a mistranslation seems weak.

 

[Hark]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread is, but the Greek word has been translated as eagles or vultures.

The question posed in verse 37 seems to be where will be the judgment, and the answer seems to be the judgement location will be obvious.

So is the idea of "body" a reference to the corpse and thus vulture food, or a reference to a living body and thus will be gathered by eagles?

Luke seems to use the Greek word both ways, to refer to a dead body and to a living body (i.e. your body). The majority view is the usage here in verse 37, refers to a dead body.

The majority view seems to see verse 37 as a parallel to Matthew 24:28, where the word for body clearly refers to a dead body, and thus vultures rather than eagles. But to proclaim the alternate (KJV) view is a mistranslation seems weak.

Thank you for sharing.

It is important to point out that eagles is still being referred to in Matthew 24:38 & that "sunago" is still derived from that long Greek word where they are being received with hospitality.

Since there is a Marriage Supper being held in Heaven with the abiding Bride & Bridegroom together in this sitting down ( Luke 13:24-30 & Luke 14:15-24 ) at this King's Supper, it is to this truth the body may very well be applied towards as meaning the marriage Supper & why eagles is used rather than vultures in referring to the abiding saints as opposed to the bad guys being removed from the earth.

 

[Dave G]

It looks like most of these modern versions did not translate from the Greek but looked at the KJV and changed it from the English.

Possibly,
But it looks more to me as if the majority of modern English Bible translators read the passages and decided, by themselves ( or simply borrowed off the NASB, since that is the first one that I can find, historically, with that reading ), to use the word "vulture" instead of "eagle".

In other words,
It's probable that they simply looked at it, discussed it among themselves, took a consensus and said, "eagle doesn't look right" and decided to do whatever they wanted to do... and not translate it strictly according to accuracy;

Rather, they appear to have tossed out that accuracy in favor of "whatever seemed correct".
To me, that's not Formal Equivalency, that is Dynamic Equivalency.

Personally speaking,
I would expect that type of technique ( which isn't really a legitmate technique at all, in my opinion ) in translations such as the NIV and other more outright paraphrases such as the NLT, AMP, and CEV... but not ones like the NASB and RSV / NRSV / ESV.

 

[Dave G]

@Hark:
To be specific:

The Koine Greek word for "eagle" is "ἀετός", transliterated into English as, "aetos".
It is used in several passages:

" For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." ( Matthew 24:28 ).
" And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together." ( Luke 17:37 ).

" And the first beast [was] like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle." (Revelation 4:7).
" And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Revelation 12:14).


Comparatively, one of the ancient Greek words for "vulture" is, "ὄρνεον" / " órneon", which corresponds to the modern Greek word of " όρνιο" / " órnio" and is the word for "griffon vulture",
and the other is "γύψ" / " gúps", which corresponds to the modern Greek word of " γύπας" / "gypas" or "gupas" and is the general word for "vulture".

Neither word is found in any of the above passages in any existing MSS in Greek...

Yet most ( not all, as the ASV and RSV, for example, do not ) modern Bibles choose to depart from the Greek and translate " ἀετός" as "vulture" instead.
Therefore, since "ἀετός" ( "eagle" ) is found in every Greek MSS in existence, I see no reason to believe that the AV translators were nothing if not accurate, in their choice of which words to use in any of the above passages.

Could Luke 17:37 have been better translated?

I'm not an expert on Bible translation, but based on my observations above, I'd say, "No".
What's more is, at least several of the AV translators were fluent in Koine Greek, and it is my firm belief that they thoroughly checked the work of whoever came before them, whether or not they ultimately decided to use any of it.

After all, it did take roughly 7 years ( 1604 to 1611 ) to develop it.
I'd say that's pretty throrough.

 

[Hark]

Possibly,
But it looks more to me as if the majority of modern English Bible translators read the passages and decided, by themselves ( or simply borrowed off the NASB, since that is the first one that I can find, historically, with that reading ), to use the word "vulture" instead of "eagle".

In other words,
It's probable that they simply looked at it, discussed it among themselves, took a consensus and said, "eagle doesn't look right" and decided to do whatever they wanted to do... and not translate it strictly according to accuracy;

Rather, they appear to have tossed out that accuracy in favor of "whatever seemed correct".
To me, that's not Formal Equivalency, that is Dynamic Equivalency.

Personally speaking,
I would expect that type of technique ( which isn't really a legitmate technique at all, in my opinion ) in translations such as the NIV and other more outright paraphrases such as the NLT, AMP, and CEV... but not ones like the NASB and RSV / NRSV / ESV.

I agree since I can see no way they got vulture out of aetos which is for eagle or wing-like flight.

Since we do not know for sure other than what appears to be how they had done it, vulture is not found in the Greek regardless.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Dave G]

There is a teaching out that that is applying Luke 17:26-37 as meaning only the bad people are removed.

I'd have to disagree with that.

Some may even apply this to what happens at the end of the great tribulation.

I would, per Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

But sunago informs us that the ones taken are received with hospitality & by wing-like flight too.

Whatever "sunago" is,
I'd have to agree with it, at least in principle.

That is what I see happening when the Lord sends forth His angels and gathers His elect as He is coming down...
From every corner of Heaven and from the four winds of the earth.

 

[Hark]

@Hark:
To be specific:

The Koine Greek word for "eagle" is "ἀετός", transliterated into English as, "aetos".
It is used in several passages:

" For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." ( Matthew 24:28 ).
" And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together." ( Luke 17:37 ).

" And the first beast [was] like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle." (Revelation 4:7).
" And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Revelation 12:14).


Comparatively, one of the ancient Greek words for "vulture" is, "ὄρνεον" / " órneon", which corresponds to the modern Greek word of " όρνιο" / " órnio" and is the word for "griffon vulture",
and the other is "γύψ" / " gúps", which corresponds to the modern Greek word of " γύπας" / "gypas" or "gupas" and is the general word for "vulture".

Neither word is found in any of the above passages in any existing MSS in Greek...

Yet most ( not all, as the ASV and RSV, for example, do not ) modern Bibles choose to depart from the Greek and translate " ἀετός" as "vulture" instead.
Therefore, since "ἀετός" ( "eagle" ) is found in every Greek MSS in existence, I see no reason to believe that the AV translators were nothing if not accurate, in their choice of which words to use in any of the above passages.

Could Luke 17:37 have been better translated?

I'm not an expert on Bible translation, but based on my observations above, I'd say, "No".
What's more is, at least several of the AV translators were fluent in Koine Greek, and it is my firm belief that they thoroughly checked the work of whoever came before them, whether or not they ultimately decided to use any of it.

After all, it did take roughly 7 years ( 1604 to 1611 ) to develop it.
I'd say that's pretty throrough.

It does looks that way. It is possible that Strong's Concordance has all the knowledge for the Greek in how it is applied in scripture. I look at "sunago" which is only part of the Greek word that is translated out of that long Greek word for being received with hospitality & the KJV may had sources of knowledge for how that sunago is used within that long Greek word. In other words, the long Greek word that sunago is only a part of, the whole long Greek word may confine its meaning to infer what verse 37 says. Sort of like... by the Spirit in us, we can know what verse 37 is metaphorically applied as by taking it in context with the rest of Luke 17:26-37 in that the disciples abiding in Him are taken by wing-like flight & received with hospitality to the Marriage Supper in Heaven above.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Conan]

You should start another thread on that and not go off topic further.

Yes thanks. I had thought that since the real 1611 had a textual marginal note in verse 36 that it should be included. But then I forgot to include the link to where the footnote came from and put it in the next post. Unfortunately it's label is off topic although that was not my intention.

 

[Hark]

Yes thanks. I had thought that since the real 1611 had a textual marginal note in verse 36 that it should be included. But then I forgot to include the link to where the footnote came from and put it in the next post. Unfortunately it's label is off topic although that was not my intention.

Okay. I am glad that you saw your link in that next post as something owing its own thread. You are free to leave a link to that thread in this thread to draw others to that topic, because addressing everything at that link deserves its own thread.

But I understand what had happened for posting the link when it was a reference to "one" among the many things mentioned at that link that was for the discussion in this thread. Probably should give directions where to find that one reference at that link that is applicable for the thread's discussion next time you give a link that gives a lot of information not relevant to the topic at hand. Like how many paragraphs down or look for the heading when you scroll halfway or a quarter or three quarters down etc.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Hark]

"KJV Only" advocates refuted!

I already created that thread so you do not have to. Here it is at the link below.

Supposedly "KJV Only" Refuted At This Link

You are welcome.

 

[rlvaughn]

View attachment 4661

Conan, this appears to be a scan from a KJV, but I am wondering what printing/edition it is from? Thanks!

 

[Salty]

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