Their nature was already fallen (Psalm 51:5; Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 1:21). Rom. 1 is an interesting passage of scripture. It explores the insidious nature of sin and the depths of reprobation. The account of the fool in Romans 1 isn't so much a timeline (exchanged the truth for a lie ---> given over to reprobation) as it is one of depth and progression. The sinner (which is everyone) is born as such and has a natural disposition towards sin. The more the sinner sins, and the more he hardens his heart, there is potential for reaching greater depths of sin. Some people peg the needle on the depravity meter and become Stalin's, Hitler's and Bin Laden's. Others never progress as far but are still enemies of God. The fool of Romans 1 is a composite. It's not one sinner who does all the things recorded in that chapter; rather it's broad brushed picture of where sin can lead.
Sorry for waxing long. It's 2:15 AM and allergies are keeping me up.
Can someone WANT to be saved but not be?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, May 15, 2012.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I do not think we have sufficient reasons to suggest that Esau was ultimately unsaved...If I were to posit a guess....I would actually believe that he was. He surrendered a life of blessedness in service to God, for instant gratification of earthly desires....He made foolish decisions to surrender the less tangible blessings of taking what would quite reasonably be expected to be his...His birthright. He had little appreciation for what his birthright was worth. Some years later....some wisdom gained...he had more appreciation (even if he never FULLY appreciated it) for what he gave up and sought it...but it wasn't Salvation he gave up. Real decisions have Real consequences.
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As the natural inclination of man, due to being sinners, is to refuse God and his offer of salvation in Christ!
man wants a salvation that comes about due to his own work/efforts. so rejects free offer in christ! -
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Double Post Edit
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite SupporterYeshua1 said: ↑No, as the Lord will save ALL who come unto Him to get saved, and ONLY those whom He enables/quickens/draws to Himself will even want to get saved!Click to expand...
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
NVM.........DP I need more savvy
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HeirofSalvation said: ↑Unless, perhaps, if one briefly considers those of a works-based faith who ostensibly torture themselves their whole lives seeking with desperation salvation........Sure :rolleyes:Click to expand...
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HeirofSalvation said: ↑Has nothing to do with the topic.
These Calvinistic platitudes you are expressing are doing a lost and dying world zero favours....You have taken them to a degree truly harmful to the furtherance of the kingdom and the realization of the will of God on Earth. If you ever pondered the sum total of ALL that the Scriptures teach in lieu of mere repetition of determinist proof texts....you might have been capable of thinking more deeply on this.Click to expand... -
I ran across an article in the Founders Journal by Jay Keywood, titled "Jonathan Edwards Religious Affections and True Religion in the Local Church."
Here's the link:http://www.founders.org/journal/fj85/article2.html
Edwards' treatise speaks to the subject under discussion here. And it raised some points that ought to make us re-examine all that we say and do in calling men and women to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. It may also cause us to re-examine our own relationship to God, and our hope of heaven.
Here's just one paragraph from Keywood's article:
A sudden, unexplainable feeling in one's mind and heart, even if it is accompanied by a text of Scripture, does not mean that it is divine. "There seems to be nothing in this which exceeds the power of Satan," Edwards says. The Scripture can be manipulated to give false assurance. Conviction for one's sins is another negative sign that can arise from nothing more than a natural, self-preserving fear of hell, instead of a respect for God's holiness (253). This person will do anything to get out of hell, even if it means believing in a God whose holiness is nauseating to him (254). On the contrary, having confidence and assurance in one's state before God does not mean that one is saved (256). Edwards writes, "The devil does not assault the hope of a hypocrite, as he does the hope of a true saint" (257). He contrasts a gracious trust in Christ with trusting in one's assurance (259). Lastly, an appearance of Christian love, accompanied by other affections does not prove anything about one's eternal destiny (250). Therefore, if a person is convicted of sins, but hears the song "I am a Friend of God," he may be elated with joy and thankfulness to an imaginary redeemer for giving him an imaginary redemptionClick to expand...
Oh, and wanting to be saved is not one of them. -
webdog said: ↑Doesn't your doctrine teach they must be given this faith to use? It matters not if there is a desire if it is an impossibility.Click to expand...
Absolutely it matters. The lack of desire, is what produces the lack of ability. They do not want to repent and believe, therefore they do not.
Back to ability. One cannot be unwilling if one is unable. There is no will involved without ability.Click to expand... -
Tom Butler said: ↑I ran across an article in the Founders Journal by Jay Keywood, titled "Jonathan Edwards Religious Affections and True Religion in the Local Church."
Here's the link:http://www.founders.org/journal/fj85/article2.html
Edwards' treatise speaks to the subject under discussion here. And it raised some points that ought to make us re-examine all that we say and do in calling men and women to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. It may also cause us to re-examine our own relationship to God, and our hope of heaven.
Here's just one paragraph from Keywood's article:
Edwards goes on to say what he believes are true religious affections, and the criteria for recognizing them in others.
Oh, and wanting to be saved is not one of them.Click to expand...
That must be one of the worst sermons I have ever heard. The only effect preaching like this can accomplish is to make people doubt their salvation. I can imagine every single person in his audience coming away full of fear and doubt, and forever seeking some "unknown" faith they cannot hope to understand.
The scriptures are simple and straightforward. Jesus said whosoever comes to him, he will in no wise cast out. He didn't say our repentance must be perfect, our feelings perfect, our intentions perfect, etc... Jesus said if we come to him in our heart desiring that he save us, HE WILL SAVE US, and under no circumstances whatsoever shall he ever cast us out.
Jesus encouraged faith, he gave complete assurance. Fellows like Edwards spread doubt and fear to everyone who heard him. This is the technique the Roman Catholic church used for centuries to control people, FEAR. -
Havensdad said: ↑"My doctrine"? :/
Absolutely it matters. The lack of desire, is what produces the lack of ability. They do not want to repent and believe, therefore they do not.
Sure they can. They can be unable because they are unwilling.Click to expand... -
Havensdad said: ↑They do not want to repent and believe, therefore they do not.Click to expand...
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webdog said: ↑Desire has no bearing on ability. That is "your doctrine" talking.Click to expand...
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Skandelon said: ↑The Occupy crowd doesn't want to get off their butts and get a job, but that doesn't mean they are unable to do so. If they were unable to willingly seek employment (like if they were mentally disabled) then they would have a good excuse for not getting a job. That is what your doctrine does...it gives men an excuse for not repenting and believing.Click to expand...
The men of the occupy movement (those who are actually part of your caricatured group, anyway...), do not seek employment because they are wicked. Because they are wicked, they do not desire to work. But that does not excuse there wickedness. -
Havensdad said: ↑Not at all. YOUR doctrine however, gives men who believe in Christ reason for boasting.
The men of the occupy movement (those who are actually part of your caricatured group, anyway...), do not seek employment because they are wicked. Because they are wicked, they do not desire to work. But that does not excuse there wickedness.Click to expand... -
Havensdad said: ↑Not at all. YOUR doctrine however, gives men who believe in Christ reason for boasting.Click to expand...
Plus, I'm only doing what the Lord told me to do when he said to Jeremiah, "let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
So, God delights in us boasting Arminians. ;)
The men of the occupy movement (those who are actually part of your caricatured group, anyway...), do not seek employment because they are wicked. Because they are wicked, they do not desire to work. But that does not excuse there wickedness.Click to expand...
In our doctrine, the unbelievers are much worse than in yours. They rebel despite God's loving and gracious provisions. They spit in his face even after he calls them and appeals for them to be reconciled. He gives them all they need yet they still choose to reject him. Their condemnation is well deserved. Your doctrine has much too high of a view of man.
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