Can you be saved and not know it?

[Allan]

Amity,

I agree that santification takes a life time, BUT becoming a child of God takes only a moment in time.

I am in my earthly family at the moment of birth but it takes a life time to learn to BE and ACT as the family does. (either good or bad)

But our salvation is not in question because we are not perfect. It is a settled fact in Christ to God the Father in whom it has please to make you His child irregardless of your imperfections. It is the fact we by the new nature strive to be as Christ against our old nature that when we fall we run back to God, we seek Him in spite of our sin. I think you are mixing the sactification process with salvation that is in Christ alone. One (sacitification) is about and dependent on our day to day lives. The other (salvation) is dependant on Christs finished work being applied to you who has believed in Him. One takes a life time the other only a moment. But both are assured in God toward His children to continue until He has accomplished in you that which He purposed.

He has predestined you to be conformed in the image of His dear son. (future tense)
And whosovever calls on the Name of the Lord SHALL BE saved. (immediate, present tense)

All of those whom the Father gave the Son, He will not loose one!
He knows them by name, and they KNOW Him for they Hear His Voice and follow Him.

Hope you surgury went ok. I'll pray for you.

In Christ
Allan.

 

[pinoybaptist]

By golly:

The more I read the posts here the more I wonder:

Is Jesus Christ truly God ?
Did He really save anyone ?
Did He really accomplish anything on His own, without the help of anyone ?
Is anyone's salvation really because of God's mercy ?
Is He really the Sovereign King of Heaven, Lord of Lords, the One who does His will in the army of heaven ?
Or was Nebuchadnezzar still simply reeling from the days of madness he was brought to ?

Because it seems to me that the gist of what most are saying here is that the work of salvation which Christ, alone, and that according to the Bible, performed, with no help from anyone, cannot really be effective unless the recipients of salvation know that Jesus Christ saved him already.

The creature must know, and the creature, possessing this knowledge, must live a life in accordance with this knowledge, because otherwise, the blood of the Lamb of glory was spilt for nothing.

And yet these same people will be quick to say out of the other side of the same mouths whereof they speak that Jesus Christ alone is Savior, and that they are dependent only on Jesus Christ.

Speak of doublespeak.

I wonder if Salamander realizes he is one of those bathing in his own hogwash.

 

[Brother Bob]

One more question from me to all that Know.

1. Do you ever "examine" yourselves? What about it Allan, do you ever examine yourself?

 

[Allan]

One more question from me to all that Know.

1. Do you ever "examine" yourselves? What about it Allan, do you ever examine yourself?

Yes, just as the scriptures state. 1. to SEE that I AM saved in accordance with God's word, 2. to make sure I have no unconfessed sin in my life. Just as Paul ascribes to the Lords Supper that we not partake UNWORTHILY for which cause many are sick and dead.

As I said before, I am as assured of my salvation as I am the Christ died of the Cross and rose again because of His Word.


Bob, are you saying you don't know if you are saved or not?

 

[Allan]

By golly:

The more I read the posts here the more I wonder:

Is Jesus Christ truly God ?
Did He really save anyone ?
Did He really accomplish anything on His own, without the help of anyone ?
Is anyone's salvation really because of God's mercy ?
Is He really the Sovereign King of Heaven, Lord of Lords, the One who does His will in the army of heaven ?
Or was Nebuchadnezzar still simply reeling from the days of madness he was brought to ?

Because it seems to me that the gist of what most are saying here is that the work of salvation which Christ, alone, and that according to the Bible, performed, with no help from anyone, cannot really be effective unless the recipients of salvation know that Jesus Christ saved him already.

The creature must know, and the creature, possessing this knowledge, must live a life in accordance with this knowledge, because otherwise, the blood of the Lamb of glory was spilt for nothing.

And yet these same people will be quick to say out of the other side of the same mouths whereof they speak that Jesus Christ alone is Savior, and that they are dependent only on Jesus Christ.

Speak of doublespeak.

I wonder if Salamander realizes he is one of those bathing in his own hogwash.

Yeah, God saves that satanist, buddist, Hindu who worshipped other gods till the moment of their death and then suddenly God says - Welcome Home son, I've missed you. You never knew me But I knew you. Don't worry about the fact you worshipped other gods and cursed my name - No matter. Your home now.

You have issues.

NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH Christ.
Unless you repent you shall ALL likewise Perish.
Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.
Whosoever calls on the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved.
On and On it goes...

NO WHERE in scritpure does it state in ANY FASHION there are those who are saved that wont even know it till they are in heaven.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, just as the scriptures state. NOT to see if I am saved, but to see if my life as one who IS saved is in accordance with God's word. Just as Paul ascribes to the Lords Supper that we not partake UNWORTHILY for which cause many are sick and dead.

As I said before, I am as assured of my salvation as I am the Christ died of the Cross and rose again.

I am just as assured also and that comes from belief.

The whole Bible is about belief, faith. Except ye believe, you shall die in your sins.

Everyone has that much knowledge that is "born again". They believe that Jesus died and arose again and went back to be with the Father. They have the same belief that they are saved. Everyone who says they have a "hope" has that same belief that Jesus died for their sins.

If a man examines himself, and according to scripture it is to see if he has the faith, then right before he examines himself he must of had a reason to do so. God Bless and peace,

 

[Allan]

I am just as assured also and that comes from belief.

The whole Bible is about belief, faith. Except ye believe, you shall die in your sins.

Everyone has that much knowledge that is "born again". They believe that Jesus died and arose again and went back to be with the Father. They have the same belief that they are saved. Everyone who says they have a "hope" has that same belief that Jesus died for their sins.

If a man examines himself, and according to scripture it is to see if he has the faith, then right before he examines himself he must of had a reason to do so. God Bless and peace,

I changed my post somewhat just a bit as you posted this.

It shows WHY one must examine in light of Pauls command, a little better.

 

[Allan]

I am just as assured also and that comes from belief.

The whole Bible is about belief, faith. Except ye believe, you shall die in your sins.

Everyone has that much knowledge that is "born again". They believe that Jesus died and arose again and went back to be with the Father. They have the same belief that they are saved. Everyone who says they have a "hope" has that same belief that Jesus died for their sins.

If a man examines himself, and according to scripture it is to see if he has the faith, then right before he examines himself he must of had a reason to do so. God Bless and peace,

So then you believe the saved DO and CAN know they are saved?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, are you saying you don't know if you are saved or not?

I am saying what you said Allan.

1. I believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died and arose again.

2. I believe He saved me from my sins.

You said: I am as assured of my salvation as I am the Christ died of the Cross and rose again because of His Word.

 

[Allan]

I am sayine what you said Allan.

1. I believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died and arose again.

2. I believe He saved me from my sins.

You said: I am as assured of my salvation as I am the Christ died of the Cross and rose again because of His Word.

So then you KNOW that you are saved, Right? or Wrong?

 

[Brother Bob]

When I am in the Spirit Allan, no one could convince me that I am not saved.

I am in accordance with what Jesus required of me.

Jhn 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

As much as I have assurance that Jesus arose from the grave, I have assurance that I am saved.

The church are believers. The saved are believers.

 

[Allan]

When I am in the Spirit Allan, no one could convince me that I am not saved.

I am in accordance with what Jesus required of me.

Jhn 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

As much as I have assurance that Jesus arose from the grave, I have assurance that I am saved.

The church are believers. The saved are believers.

I agree with this:

I love you brother Bob, but you confuse me sometimes. :laugh:

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
No.

 

[Brother Bob]

I love you too Allan. :applause:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yeah, God saves that satanist, budist, Hindu who worshipped other gods till the moment of their death and then suddenly God says - Welcome Home son, I've missed you. You never knew me But I knew you. Don't worry about the fact you worshipped other gods and cursed my name - No matter. Your home now.

You just hit the nail on the head, there, Allan. Except for one thing, Christ never missed His children because He knows them all by name, knew them. He knew who Nathaniel was before Nathaniel came to Him.

You see, if you take a close look at what you just said, you have just put preconditions to God's work of salvation in Christ. You MUST never have cursed my name, you MUST have belonged to at least a semblance of the right theology, you MUST never have lived or worshipped under a different religion, you MUST have behaved according to my standards. You MUST have known me first.

Preconditions, pre conditions, and more pre conditions.
You are actually trying to set God up to your standards, did you know that ?

Think about these:

1. God's children live in a fallen world;
2. God's children are by nature fallen and are therefore attracted to fallen things;
3. God's children were not saved for this world, if they were saved for this world, then Jesus would have told His inquirer that this world is His Kingdom and would have asked the Father to send His angels;
4. The blood of the Lamb washes away ALL sin, including satan worship, and that blood was spilt from the foundation of the world. Also, who are we to tell God who to accept ? If God allows his satanist child to live his entire miserable life on earth, in time, and then take him in at the last minute, who are we to throw a tantrum about that ?
Remember the parable of the laborers who got paid the same wages despite the difference in time of service they had ?
5. A book of Life is attributed to the Lamb, and that Book of Life was written and populated with names from before the foundation of the world, before any of those whose names are in the Book were even born, or chose this or that theology, or this or that creed, or this or that religion or non-religion;
6. All of them were predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, which conformation, obviously, will be when they get to Heaven, and then they were called, and then they were justified, and then they were glorified.

7. The blood of the Lamb was spilt, both from before the foundation of the world, and, in time, to cover the sins of all of God's elect, whether they knew it or not, whether they existed before, during, or after Calvary.

8. There were no preconditions to their salvation. Not knowledge first, not reformation first, not assent first, not knowledge after, not reformation after, not assent after. IF you have Scripture to prove that there were preconditions to one's eternal salvation, then give them.

9. The final destination of each of God's own is in the presence of God, where they will glorify God for all eternity. Therefore, while they are commanded to obey the gospel here on earth, the fact remains that not all of God's redeemed will hear the gospel, not all will obey the gospel, not all will have the opportunity to join a gospel church for the simple reason that those charged with preaching the gospel to God's people are not omnipresent, and if so, then it follows that while one may have been covered by the blood of the Lamb for purposes of eternity, one may be subject to one's fallen environment.

You have issues.

NO man comes to the Father except THROUGH Christ.
Unless you repent you shall ALL likewise Perish.
Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.
Whosoever calls on the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved.
On and On it goes...

No. You have issues. Your issue is that you think your thoughts are equal to God's.

The rule of eternity supercedes the rule of fallen time. No man comes to the Father except through Christ is a rule of eternity that will always be true regardless of how the child of God thinks is the way to come to the Father.

It is an established truth just as "no other name under heaven whereby man must be saved" is an established truth. Man's religion may have many names, and their adherents may at their time of adherence absolutely certain the name they call on is the right name, but in eternity the only name honored by God is the Name by whereby man must be saved.

As for your other Scriptures, whether they refer to eternal salvation or timely salvation, what you in your theology would probably refer to as sanctified and separated living, is debatable.

NO WHERE in scritpure does it state in ANY FASHION there are those who are saved that wont even know it till they are in heaven.

And as has already been pointed out by Amity and Brother Bob, those to whom the Scriptures you love to quote were written to were being educated about the fact of their salvation which salvation happened before their education.

 

[Allan]

You just hit the nail on the head, there, Allan. Except for one thing, Christ never missed His children because He knows them all by name, knew them. He knew who Nathaniel was before Nathaniel came to Him.

You see, if you take a close look at what you just said, you have just put preconditions to God's work of salvation in Christ. You MUST never have cursed my name, you MUST have belonged to at least a semblance of the right theology, you MUST never have lived or worshipped under a different religion, you MUST have behaved according to my standards. You MUST have known me first.

Preconditions, pre conditions, and more pre conditions.
You are actually trying to set God up to your standards, did you know that ?

Think about these:

1. God's children live in a fallen world;
2. God's children are by nature fallen and are therefore attracted to fallen things;
3. God's children were not saved for this world, if they were saved for this world, then Jesus would have told His inquirer that this world is His Kingdom and would have asked the Father to send His angels;
4. The blood of the Lamb washes away ALL sin, including satan worship, and that blood was spilt from the foundation of the world. Also, who are we to tell God who to accept ? If God allows his satanist child to live his entire miserable life on earth, in time, and then take him in at the last minute, who are we to throw a tantrum about that ?
Remember the parable of the laborers who got paid the same wages despite the difference in time of service they had ?
5. A book of Life is attributed to the Lamb, and that Book of Life was written and populated with names from before the foundation of the world, before any of those whose names are in the Book were even born, or chose this or that theology, or this or that creed, or this or that religion or non-religion;
6. All of them were predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, which conformation, obviously, will be when they get to Heaven, and then they were called, and then they were justified, and then they were glorified.

7. The blood of the Lamb was spilt, both from before the foundation of the world, and, in time, to cover the sins of all of God's elect, whether they knew it or not, whether they existed before, during, or after Calvary.

8. There were no preconditions to their salvation. Not knowledge first, not reformation first, not assent first, not knowledge after, not reformation after, not assent after. IF you have Scripture to prove that there were preconditions to one's eternal salvation, then give them.

9. The final destination of each of God's own is in the presence of God, where they will glorify God for all eternity. Therefore, while they are commanded to obey the gospel here on earth, the fact remains that not all of God's redeemed will hear the gospel, not all will obey the gospel, not all will have the opportunity to join a gospel church for the simple reason that those charged with preaching the gospel to God's people are not omnipresent, and if so, then it follows that while one may have been covered by the blood of the Lamb for purposes of eternity, one may be subject to one's fallen environment.



No. You have issues. Your issue is that you think your thoughts are equal to God's.

The rule of eternity supercedes the rule of fallen time. No man comes to the Father except through Christ is a rule of eternity that will always be true regardless of how the child of God thinks is the way to come to the Father.

It is an established truth just as "no other name under heaven whereby man must be saved" is an established truth. Man's religion may have many names, and their adherents may at their time of adherence absolutely certain the name they call on is the right name, but in eternity the only name honored by God is the Name by whereby man must be saved.

As for your other Scriptures, whether they refer to eternal salvation or timely salvation, what you in your theology would probably refer to as sanctified and separated living, is debatable.



And as has already been pointed out by Amity and Brother Bob, those to whom the Scriptures you love to quote were written to were being educated about the fact of their salvation which salvation happened before their education.

Those who do not beleive ARE NOT saved, PERIOD. That is a condition set by God Himself. No matter which side of the Theolgocial fence one stands (Cal / Non- Cal) the person who is saved BELEIVES and knows IN WHOM they have believed.
They were not saved BEFORE they believed. That is were you can deny the scriptures all you want but they stand as a testimony against your viewpiont.

 

[amity]

Oh, now we are going to have THAT discussion again. What about those who have never heard?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

8. There were no preconditions to their salvation. Not knowledge first, not reformation first, not assent first, not knowledge after, not reformation after, not assent after. IF you have Scripture to prove that there were preconditions to one's eternal salvation, then give them.

9. The final destination of each of God's own is in the presence of God, where they will glorify God for all eternity. Therefore, while they are commanded to obey the gospel here on earth, the fact remains that not all of God's redeemed will hear the gospel, not all will obey the gospel, not all will have the opportunity to join a gospel church for the simple reason that those charged with preaching the gospel to God's people are not omnipresent, and if so, then it follows that while one may have been covered by the blood of the Lamb for purposes of eternity, one may be subject to one's fallen environment.

This isn't the case according to Christ.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

The rich young ruler turned his back on the gospel and eternal life because he was unwilling to make Christ the Lord of his life instead of his wealth.

 

[Allan]

Oh, now we are going to have THAT discussion again. What about those who have never heard?

No, we aren't going there but scriptures does say that God has set His witness in Creation and there are NONE without excuse. (Romans)

Scripture also says
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

But if you read the first 4 Chapters of Romans it will let you know more clearly, they turned the truths of God into unrighteousness and God gave them over...


But those arguements are neither here nor there in this thread which is about - Can you be saved and NOT know it?
Answer - No.

 

[amity]

This isn't the case according to Christ.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

The rich young ruler turned his back on the gospel and eternal life because he was unwilling to make Christ the Lord of his life instead of his wealth.

You are leaving out the best part of the story... Christ loved him anyway, and when the disciples marvelled and asked "Who then can be saved?" He said "with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Allan - yes, there are people of other faiths who don't need an excuse, because they have seen outwardly or inwardly and are saved, yes, and don't know it. Doesn't the very passage of scripture you just quoted tell you that? But if you wish to argue that point, please start another thread.