Can you be saved and not know it?

[Lacy Evans]

Salvation is by Faith alone. It is casting away all faith in self and in our own filthy-rags righteousness, and putting our full confidence in the sure and finished work of Christ.

My question is: Other than having someone talk you out of your assurance after you were saved by believing in Christ's atoning blood, can you be saved and not know it? Isn't knowing part of faith? If you don't know, have you really believed?

In other words, how can there be any doubt if you believe that Christ took your place and paid your sin debt? Can you get saved by believing something short of that? (Like, "Christ's blood saved me so i hope I am saved?"


lacy

 

[mima]

I have this this question of many Christians. Most of them say no to would be impossible to be saved and not be aware of being saved. But I tend to disagree with that point of view. While it is true that there are many strong believers that are certain of their salvation it is also true that there are more weak believers than strong believers. That is to say many believers believe their are saved but they cannot say with certainty. God knows for certain of course, but because of the differences in men and different things that have happened to some of them, these weak believers cannot boldly state that they are saved. It is for this reason that when I witness to someone I never tell them they are saved until I have shown them how their salvation is sealed by proof from the Word of God!!! Consequently I have not had a person that accepted the Lord Jesus Christ through my message ever to come back to me and said I do not believe any longer that I'm saved.

 

[Brother Bob]

I think if you are going to ask that question, first you should explain the following Scripture.

Romans 8:

21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,

waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Notice that the flesh is not yet been saved, delivered or born again, because it still has to die and can't go to Heaven as it is.

I also want you to know there is a great number of Christians of the Baptist faith that preach a "hope" and that hope being Jesus Christ. They do not hold to "absolute" knowledge and I believe they are God's people for sure. There are many on here but they may not speak up for fear of mockery but I happen to be one that will stand when the world is on fire and I say the only way you "know" is in the Spirit, that it is impossible to know in the flesh, for it is still in sin.

I also claim to know as much as anyone can know.
I know I am not the man I used to be.
I know a burden was lifted from me when I received Christ.
I know I am willing to die on what I know and don't know.
I know I have felt Jesus in my life for 34 years.
I know I love the Lord more than life itself.
I know my prayers have been answered through the years.
I also know, that I haven't seen Heaven yet.
I know I haven't seen Jesus yet except spiritually.
I know if someone says to me "Brother Bob, sometimes I doubt myself, am I lost?" I answer very quickly NO!!! which has happened more than once.
I know some say "if all I had was a hope, I sure would be going somewhere else". Well, if your "hope" is Jesus Christ, the anchor of the soul and anchored to that which is within the veil, what else you want or need?

I doubt very seriously if those who have all the knowledge really know what those who say they have a hope are really talking about. I say their "hope" is just as great as your knowledge.
Your knowledge is in Christ Jesus.
Their Hope is Christ Jesus.

 

[Salamander]

I John 5:13-15 is enough for me to KNOW.

 

[Brother Bob]

in the flesh?

Also why don't you give Romans 8 a stab.

As I said your KNOW is no more than their Hope for their Hope is Christ.

Do you feel as strongly about 1 John 5:18?

 

[ituttut]

Salvation is by Faith alone. It is casting away all faith in self and in our own filthy-rags righteousness, and putting our full confidence in the sure and finished work of Christ.

My question is: Other than having someone talk you out of your assurance after you were saved by believing in Christ's atoning blood, can you be saved and not know it? Isn't knowing part of faith? If you don't know, have you really believed?

In other words, how can there be any doubt if you believe that Christ took your place and paid your sin debt? Can you get saved by believing something short of that? (Like, "Christ's blood saved me so i hope I am saved?"

In the body church there is no doubt.

In the kingdom church there is room for doubt.

 

[Allan]

I think if you are going to ask that question, first you should explain the following Scripture.

Romans 8:

21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,

waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Notice that the flesh is not yet been saved, delivered or born again, because it still has to die and can't go to Heaven as it is.

I also want you to know there is a great number of Christians of the Baptist faith that preach a "hope" and that hope being Jesus Christ. They do not hold to "absolute" knowledge and I believe they are God's people for sure. There are many on here but they may not speak up for fear of mockery but I happen to be one that will stand when the world is on fire and I say the only way you "know" is in the Spirit, that it is impossible to know in the flesh, for it is still in sin.
..snip...
Well, if your "hope" is Jesus Christ, the anchor of the soul and anchored to that which is within the veil, what else you want or need?[/B]

I doubt very seriously if those who have all the knowledge really know what those who say they have a hope are really talking about. I say their "hope" is just as great as your knowledge.
Your knowledge is in Christ Jesus.
Their Hope is Christ Jesus.

Bob, Romans 8 HAS BEEN delt with.
Romans 8 is not about doubting in the flesh but the struggle in flesh against the the Spirit.

The flesh doesn't determine what I believe for I am to bring ALL THINGS into the submission of Christ. That includes the lust of the flesh to be placed into obediene and is the very reason Pauls says we are to live our lives as living sacrifices. Look at the last verse. It is Christ that brings assurance to you in the flesh and these things were written so you would believe.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The flesh doesn't doubt or stand assured but it desires and yearns or longs. In other words, it is in the heart where an issue is settled because of the knowledge of the New man or Spirit, that brings the whole being under submission to that belief. We are not be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine but stead fast in assurance of that which we have received and been once given unto the saints.

The flesh will not be saved but renewed.

Remember - SHALL BE...is an absolute statement. Hope means EXPECTING (having expectation) God to do just what God said He would do toward those who have repented and believed. God is not like man for He does not lie. With God there is certainty and absolute knowing when it comes to the Hope of our salvation in Christ who has saved us according to His power. Romans 8 deals with us one day not having to be burdened by the flesh in constant contention with the Spirit. That is the 'hope' or expectation (assurance) that we have in Christ because God doesn't lie - therefore it WILL be with absolute certainty but for now looked to with 'Hope' (expectation) of that which God has promised and WILL do.

Having a "joyful CONFIDENT expectation" IS assurance because God who does not lie is the one who saves us. Anyone that is confident rests in that assurance. As I stated before Peter, Paul, and John all stated with ABSOLUTE certainty they were saved and said we as believers can know this for certain as well.

 

[Allan]

in the flesh?

Also why don't you give Romans 8 a stab.

As I said your KNOW is no more than their Hope for their Hope is Christ.

Do you feel as strongly about 1 John 5:18?

Bob, what part of ...(1Jo 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life. ... is debatable - even in the flesh.

It is an absolute statement. Scritpure does not contradict scripture and much of the NT is about our confidence an assurance of our salvation in Christ, through Christ, by Christ, because of Christ. Our salvation is as sure as God Himself, and we can know we have it just as we can know the Love of God towards us.

 

[amity]

Salvation is by Faith alone. It is casting away all faith in self and in our own filthy-rags righteousness, and putting our full confidence in the sure and finished work of Christ.

My question is: Other than having someone talk you out of your assurance after you were saved by believing in Christ's atoning blood, can you be saved and not know it? Isn't knowing part of faith? If you don't know, have you really believed?

In other words, how can there be any doubt if you believe that Christ took your place and paid your sin debt? Can you get saved by believing something short of that? (Like, "Christ's blood saved me so i hope I am saved?"


lacy

Obviously, Paul wrote the oftn-quoted passage in I John 5:23 to reassure those who were in doubt. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." To me this implies that has they not received Paul's epistle they might have had salvation but not known it. What other interpretation could be possible.?

 

[Allan]

Obviously, Paul wrote the oftn-quoted passage in I John 5:23 to reassure those who were in doubt. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." To me this implies that has they not received Paul's epistle they might have had salvation but not known it. What other interpretation could be possible.?

Actually it was John, and not Paul.
There is quite different interpretation if you look at that passage in context of the chapter. It is about being able to identify those who are and are not saved by basic fruits that manifest in their lives (regarding personal or self judgment). John was dealing with the church that had both saved and not in it. Some were believers and some were professors only for they had a life that did not manifest certain charactoristics any ordinary believer has. Actaully it is a good book to read through so do that - again Cause I figure you might have already read it.

These things were written so you may know... AND that you may believe...

I have not even taken up the history of the book because though it is benificial the context is still undisputed. You can know you are saved and you can know that you are not. Examine yourselves to KNOW whether you are in the Faith - That is by Paul.

 

[Salamander]

in the flesh?

Also why don't you give Romans 8 a stab.

As I said your KNOW is no more than their Hope for their Hope is Christ.

Do you feel as strongly about 1 John 5:18?

Why would I want to stab the Word of God?

Sure I understand, not feel strongly, I John 5:18, the question is, do you?

I KNOW my Redeemer liveth and daily maketh intercession for me.

He changed me. He speaks to my heart through His Word and what He speaks His Word CONFIRMS!

The word "hope' is not hope, as we tend to understand the word, but it is CONFIDENCE!

 

[AAA]

Salvation is by Faith alone. It is casting away all faith in self and in our own filthy-rags righteousness, and putting our full confidence in the sure and finished work of Christ.

My question is: Other than having someone talk you out of your assurance after you were saved by believing in Christ's atoning blood, can you be saved and not know it? Isn't knowing part of faith? If you don't know, have you really believed?

In other words, how can there be any doubt if you believe that Christ took your place and paid your sin debt? Can you get saved by believing something short of that? (Like, "Christ's blood saved me so i hope I am saved?"


lacy

I think that you can be saved and UNSURE of your salvation, but with dobt a person can still know if they are saved or not.

On the other side of the coin there are people who "KNOW" that they are saved and they believe that they are truely saved and JESUS will still say depart from me. Matt 7...........

Knowing that you are saved does not prove that you are saved...

:godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

I think that you can be saved and UNSURE of your salvation, but with dobt a person can still know if they are saved or not.

On the other side of the coin there are people who "KNOW" that they are saved and they believe that they are truely saved and JESUS will still say depart from me. Matt 7...........

Knowing that you are saved does not prove that you are saved...

:godisgood:

I have problems with that, it would make the LORD not much of a Father to allow people to continue in a false profession without ever dealing with them.

If a person can sin and not be under the chastisement of God, not always immediately due to the longsuffering of God, they had better check up!

 

[pinoybaptist]

The original question was : can you be saved and not know it ?

And my answer is "yes".

Everyday there are souls who are saved who die and do not even know that Jesus saved them, just as everyday there are souls who die absolutely sure that they are saved and the opposite turns out to be true for them.

Remember that Jesus died on the cross to save His people and there were no preconditions for the result to happen.

His people are saved because He saved them, not because they know it, not because they assented to it, not because they are Calvinists, or Arminians, or Baptists, or whatever, not because they are Jews, or dispensationalists, or amillenialists, or all those silly little things that finite, fallen man holds to.

Jesus saved them because that is what the Father's desire is for them, because they were God's gifts to Him, and He was God's gift to them.

Jesus saved them because He wanted to save them, not because they wanted to be saved.

Do I know that I am saved ?

My hope is Christ. My righteousness is Christ. My eyes are fixed on Christ. My heart is fixed on Christ.

And if Christ's heart is not fixed on me ? If His eyes are not fixed on me ?
If I open my eyes and find that heaven's doors are, after all, closed for me ?

What can I say then ?

Nothing.

My mouth is stopped, because in no way do I ever deserve heaven.

So, yes, God's child is saved and he may not even know it until he gets to the other side of the grave.

Because after all, Christ saved His child for Himself in Heaven, not for earth.

 

[Brother Bob]

Why would I want to stab the Word of God?

Sure I understand, not feel strongly, I John 5:18, the question is, do you?

I KNOW my Redeemer liveth and daily maketh intercession for me.

He changed me. He speaks to my heart through His Word and what He speaks His Word CONFIRMS!

The word "hope' is not hope, as we tend to understand the word, but it is CONFIDENCE!

confidence =having or showing assurance and self-reliance <a confident young businessman> <a confident manner>

Confidence puts too much self in it for me. confidence is in one's self.

And don't be questioning my Salvation.

Anyway, all that any person can "know" is what they "believe they know", so its really "belief". You believe the scriptures and say you "know". What you are really saying is that you "believe" you know.

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen and good answer Pinoy; slap my knee, I like that. Except If they are of sound mind they know they are not the man they used to be.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, what part of ...(1Jo 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life. ... is debatable - even in the flesh.

It is an absolute statement. Scritpure does not contradict scripture and much of the NT is about our confidence an assurance of our salvation in Christ, through Christ, by Christ, because of Christ. Our salvation is as sure as God Himself, and we can know we have it just as we can know the Love of God towards us.

So, you believe the scriptures therefore you "believe" you know.

Examine yourselves to KNOW whether you are in the Faith - That is by Paul

And that my friend is what I am talking about. If you already know, what is the purpose of examining yourself?

 

[Salamander]

The original question was : can you be saved and not know it ?

And my answer is "yes".

Everyday there are souls who are saved who die and do not even know that Jesus saved them, just as everyday there are souls who die absolutely sure that they are saved and the opposite turns out to be true for them.

Remember that Jesus died on the cross to save His people and there were no preconditions for the result to happen.

His people are saved because He saved them, not because they know it, not because they assented to it, not because they are Calvinists, or Arminians, or Baptists, or whatever, not because they are Jews, or dispensationalists, or amillenialists, or all those silly little things that finite, fallen man holds to.

Jesus saved them because that is what the Father's desire is for them, because they were God's gifts to Him, and He was God's gift to them.

Jesus saved them because He wanted to save them, not because they wanted to be saved.

Do I know that I am saved ?

My hope is Christ. My righteousness is Christ. My eyes are fixed on Christ. My heart is fixed on Christ.

And if Christ's heart is not fixed on me ? If His eyes are not fixed on me ?
If I open my eyes and find that heaven's doors are, after all, closed for me ?

What can I say then ?

Nothing.

My mouth is stopped, because in no way do I ever deserve heaven.

So, yes, God's child is saved and he may not even know it until he gets to the other side of the grave.

Because after all, Christ saved His child for Himself in Heaven, not for earth.

You know what comes off a hog when you wash him? HOGWASH!

Explain how a man is changed from death unto life and NOT KNOW it?!!?

You can't.

 

[Salamander]

confidence =having or showing assurance and self-reliance <a confident young businessman> <a confident manner>

Confidence puts too much self in it for me. confidence is in one's self.

No "self" in trusting ONLY Jesus and His Word, it's called CONFIDENCE!

And don't be questioning my Salvation.

When have I ever done that?

Anyway, all that any person can "know" is what they "believe they know", so its really "belief". You believe the scriptures and say you "know". What you are really saying is that you "believe" you know.

Nope, I know the change the Lord made in me, now don't question my salvation, I know the Lord saved me!

 

[Salamander]

So, you believe the scriptures therefore you "believe" you know.


And that my friend is what I am talking about. If you already know, what is the purpose of examining yourself?

To measure onesself up to the expectations of Christ who demands fruit.

You calvinists have an awfully foul spirit about you at times.