Can you be saved and not know it?

[Brother Bob]

No "self" in trusting ONLY Jesus and His Word, it's called CONFIDENCE!

Where did you get the "confidence"
Definition is "self-reliance".

To measure onesself up to the expectations of Christ who demands fruit.

And if you don't have the fruit, the purpose for measuring was to see if you are in the "faith". What if you come up short when you measure yourself, does that mean you don't have the faith after all? This are not foul statements they are questions to your posts.

 

[Brother Bob]

To measure onesself up to the expectations of Christ who demands fruit.

You calvinists have an awfully foul spirit about you at times.

I see nothing wrong with the spirit of the Cal. It was you that called Pinoy's post "hogwash" and went on about washing a hog. If you think that was a loving spirit you got me fooled.

 

[John of Japan]

Salvation is by Faith alone. It is casting away all faith in self and in our own filthy-rags righteousness, and putting our full confidence in the sure and finished work of Christ.

My question is: Other than having someone talk you out of your assurance after you were saved by believing in Christ's atoning blood, can you be saved and not know it? Isn't knowing part of faith? If you don't know, have you really believed?

In other words, how can there be any doubt if you believe that Christ took your place and paid your sin debt? Can you get saved by believing something short of that? (Like, "Christ's blood saved me so i hope I am saved?"

lacy

Meanwhile, back at the OP, try this verse on for size:

2 Peter 1:9--"But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

Okay, now the C vs. A crowd can go back to their fussin' and feudin'.

 

[Brother Bob]

that is what I call blue John.

 

[Allan]

So, you believe the scriptures therefore you "believe" you know.


And that my friend is what I am talking about. If you already know, what is the purpose of examining yourself?

Then you WILL KNOW!

I don't believe I'm saved Bob. I know it!!!

I am as sure of my salvation as I am that Christ died for my sins.
I am as sure of my life that was changed as I am the old it changed from.

I don't believe I'm Saved, I believe the Word of God that says whosoever...
I know I'm saved because God did everything He said He would according to His Promise and the changed life, desire toward God, fruits of the Spirit, love of the brethren are manifestations that a test to my salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

How can one man tell another what he knows or don't know. I only ask about certain scriptures such as Romans 8:

Here is another one and don't take it as I am saying whether you know or not, but apparently Paul thought the Corinthians didn't know for sure they had Christ, and its one of the scriptures already mentioned on here. We are just debating so everyone remain cool.

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This was a question Paul asked the Corinthians, whether they knew they had Christ or not. When did the knowledge get stronger than it was to the Corinthians.

 

[ituttut]

Obviously, Paul wrote the oftn-quoted passage in I John 5:23 to reassure those who were in doubt. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." To me this implies that has they not received Paul's epistle they might have had salvation but not known it. What other interpretation could be possible.?

Very good insight into that "kingdom church" the Apostle's were members of. I believe you have been allowed to see certain things. The gospel of the Cross was not included in the "great commission". We know John sounds very much like Paul in his writings, getting away from rituals, the law of ordinances that have no meaning to the Body Church.

Paul preaching and writing his Epistles over 30 years before John was allowed to write lets us know both John and Peter accepted the gospel of Paul. Peter tells us they had read all of Paul's Epistles' to the Gentiles and the Jew, plus one exclusively to the Hebrew. Peter goes further advising Paul had wisdom given to him the others did not have, and that wisdom is difficult to understand.

Of course in Acts 10 we find the first recorded record of a Jew preaching directly to and at a Gentile with the Gospel that Christ had only recently revealed to Paul, as shown in Acts 9. This was the only Gentile Peter ever preached at or to, and evidently God sent Peter on this mission for a purpose. This event had to occur to allow the "Body Church" to come into existence, for even though Paul had all the Power that Peter had, no one would believe there was actually 13 Apostles, 12 to preach the gospel of the circumcision Kingdom Church, and one to preach the gospel of the uncircumcised, Body Church.

I look at God setting up Peter at one end, as in a bookend, and John on the other end. These two Apostles prop up, allowing us to accept Paul as the Apostle to both the Jew and the Gentile that we are to find in the Body Church today. There was no Body Church available before Damascus Road, and there will be no Body Church available after the "rapture". When this Body Church is caught up to Christ in the air, the prophecy books will again come together to complete prophecy of the "Tribulation, God's wrath, the millennium, and on into eternity.

 

[ituttut]

Actually it was John, and not Paul.
There is quite different interpretation if you look at that passage in context of the chapter. It is about being able to identify those who are and are not saved by basic fruits that manifest in their lives (regarding personal or self judgment). John was dealing with the church that had both saved and not in it. Some were believers and some were professors only for they had a life that did not manifest certain charactoristics any ordinary believer has. Actaully it is a good book to read through so do that - again Cause I figure you might have already read it.

These things were written so you may know... AND that you may believe...

I have not even taken up the history of the book because though it is benificial the context is still undisputed. You can know you are saved and you can know that you are not. Examine yourselves to KNOW whether you are in the Faith - That is by Paul.

I believe you misconstrue what amity said.

 

[Allan]

How can one man tell another what he knows or don't know. I only ask about certain scriptures such as Romans 8:

Here is another one and don't take it as I am saying whether you know or not, but apparently Paul thought the Corinthians didn't know for sure they had Christ, and its one of the scriptures already mentioned on here. We are just debating so everyone remain cool.

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This was a question Paul asked the Corinthians, whether they knew they had Christ or not. When did the knowledge get stronger than it was to the Corinthians.

No sir, Look again and Paul was showing that either they ARE or ARE NOT. We see this because of who 2 Cor 13 is addressed to.

2Cr 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

Now in light of this you can see WHY Paul states to examine yourselves TO KNOW whether you ARE in the Faith because they were living as though they were not. They could see the truth of salvation IN them when they examined themselves AGAINST the Truth of scripture that they have a changed life and fruit of the Spirit which come forth in EVERY believer.
In light of this verse 5 is accusitive - Do you not KNOW that you are in Christ, UNLESS you are not. Only a person who does not know is not in Christ. That is how sure your knowing IS.

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? - KJV

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! - ESV

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. - NKJV

Then onward:

2Cr 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
2Cr 13:7 ¶ Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
2Cr 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

This is NOT about helping them realize they are saved or not. They were living like the world and claiming Christ. They lives proclaim the truth of their eternal state and verse 8 shows just that. ...We can nothing against the truth...
Youngs Translation puts it this way

for we are not able to do anything against the truth, but for the truth;

As a believer we can not live like the World but must by our very nature live according to and for the truth - Jesus Christ.
Paul was revealing that some WERE NOT saved and living improperly and those who are letting it be.

Again, go back and look over my posts. I have dealt with Romans 8. I can tell another man how they can Know because God has stated in His word EXACTLY how one can KNOW they are in the Faith.

 

[Lacy Evans]

How can one man tell another what he knows or don't know.

HUH?

 

[Allan]

I believe you misconstrue what amity said.

No, I didn't. Read Amity's posts there are others in another thread that spawned this one into being.

Amity is not talking Body/Kingdom or anything like that.
Here some quote from Amity on the thread "Saved, How can we know"

This is not a misunderstanding of the usage of that word, Ed. It is a reality. As someone has already pointed out, even the apostles did not have absolute certainty.

As I said, if you read my response, I am confident that some are saved. I cannot be certain of who. And why should I be?

How anyone can feel "certain" is a little baffling to me, I guess because it would seem on the face of things that it must mean they thought more highly of themselves than they ought. What possible experience would make someone "permanently certain"? I have had moments of near-perfect confidence, but not most of the time. I don't see it taught doctrinally, and I don't see it in ANYONE experimentally, either.

And what purpose would such confidence serve? What would be the meaning of faith be in the face of certainty? Why should we want certainty?

And we are not saved by confidence, either, but by FAITH:

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Let me put it this way, Lacy, I have full confidence that if I am sent to hell it will be by a just and righteous God. That confidence comes from the Bible.

Lacy, you are full of doctrine. I agree with you on most of what you have said on this subject. My point is... how do you know that Christ's blood is applied TO YOU?

As you can see it has nothing to do with what you assume.
However to get the full view of what Amity is stating I would suggest going back and reading Amity's posts, both there AND here.

 

[John of Japan]

that is what I call blue John.

Naw, I'm not blue, Brother Bob. I'm just rejoicing in the Lord for my salvation, of which I am sure. But of course even if I'm wrong and can't be sure of my salvation, why the Christian life and the missionary life gives me the greatest joy and peace I could imagin e! So it would be worth it even if I faded into non-existence when I died. :saint:

 

[ituttut]

No, I didn't. Read Amity's posts there are others in another thread that spawned this one into being.

Amity is not talking Body/Kingdom or anything like that.
Here some quote from Amity on the thread "Saved, How can we know"



As you can see it has nothing to do with what you assume.
However to get the full view of what Amity is stating I would suggest going back and reading Amity's posts, both there AND here.

That is what she said before, but this is what she says now about doubt.

Quote "Obviously, Paul wrote the oftn-quoted passage in I John 5:23 to reassure those who were in doubt. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." To me this implies that has they not received Paul's epistle they might have had salvation but not known it. What other interpretation could be possible.?" Unquote

The question is about "doubt", and if you will reread her reply above you find in her answer she shows cause that removes doubt, and looks to give Paul the credit.

Perhaps she doesn't realize (Sorry amity, but see no further post from you) what she sees, but she said it. I wrote what I did for I wished to flesh out what she puts in a backward manner, perhaps believing Paul pulled from I John 5:13 when it was the other way around.

 

[Brother Bob]

Naw, I'm not blue, Brother Bob. I'm just rejoicing in the Lord for my salvation, of which I am sure. But of course even if I'm wrong and can't be sure of my salvation, why the Christian life and the missionary life gives me the greatest joy and peace I could imagin e! So it would be worth it even if I faded into non-existence when I died. :saint:__________________

I was speaking of your outfit you have on.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ezekiel, chapter 37
10: So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11: Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: THEN shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through Knowledge (oops, I mean faith and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:



No, I think Paul was telling them to examine themselves and prove whether they were Christians or reprobates. He certainly was asking them "don't you know whether you have Christ or not"? It certainly was a question to them.

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

If you are testing yourself to see if you are in the faith, then you are testing yourselves to see if Jesus Christ is in you. If they KNEW, then there would of been no reason for the test.

 

[EdSutton]

I was speaking of your outfit you have on.

Yep! 'Shore' looks blue to me, too!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :wavey:

Ed

 

[John of Japan]

I was speaking of your outfit you have on.

Oh yeah, right. The outfit. I knew that.

I picked that up in Hong Kong in 2002, and only wear it for kung fu altercations with hoity toity types.

 

[John of Japan]

Yep! 'Shore' looks blue to me, too!!

Ed

You should see my other outfit!

:laugh: :wavey:

 

[amity]

That is what she said before, but this is what she says now about doubt.

Quote "Obviously, Paul wrote the oftn-quoted passage in I John 5:23 to reassure those who were in doubt. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." To me this implies that has they not received Paul's epistle they might have had salvation but not known it. What other interpretation could be possible.?" Unquote

The question is about "doubt", and if you will reread her reply above you find in her answer she shows cause that removes doubt, and looks to give Paul the credit.

Perhaps she doesn't realize (Sorry amity, but see no further post from you) what she sees, but she said it. I wrote what I did for I wished to flesh out what she puts in a backward manner, perhaps believing Paul pulled from I John 5:13 when it was the other way around.

Amity is back. I don't understand that part about the two kingdoms, and I have never really heard about that before. I will try to add a few words to what I already said to hopefully clarify. I believe that while we are in the flesh, i.e. while we are alive on earth and still sinners, we cannot have perfect faith. We only see through a glass darkly. We cannot KNOW with the certainty we will have when we actually do see Christ face to face. Meanwhile the faith we do have is used to console and reassure one another. But faith is not the same thing as certain knowledge.

I could tell each one of you "Yes, I am sure you are going to heaven." and not be lying when I see fruit, because I do feel utterly confident at that moment. But in reality, more especially in regard to myself, I still see myself sinning something horrible, acting from selfish motives, really every 'good' act I try to do is tainted by something impure. O wretched woman that I am! I don't believe in perfectibility on earth, and I am sure most of us don't (we are Baptists, after all) but it is so much easier to see fruit in people I don't know well, only seeing their good side of course. When I see fruit in myself I often wonder "is that the "real" me, or is it the me I wish to project to others." I do think the real me is often kept in check by my desire to serve Christ. Maybe that is the most any of us can do, and it is a process, something we are striving for over our lives. To bear Christ's image takes a lifetime. And we need divine grace for that every minute, so really any fruit we bear is the Holy Spirit acting through us. IOW, I don't really believe that regeneration takes all the depravity away! It just places the Holy Spirit in us in addition to the depravity, and after that there is a constant struggle. Meanwhile, what we are is hard, really impossible, to know.

"I am a stranger here below,
And what I am, 'tis hard to know.
I seem so vile, so prone to sin
I fear that I'm not born again.

When I experience call to mind
My understanding is so blind
All feeling sense seems to be gone
Which makes me think that I am wrong.

I find myself out of the way
My thoughts are often gone astray;
Like one alone I seem to be,
O, is there anyone like me?

'Tis seldom I can ever see
Myself as I would wish to be
What I desire I can't attain,
From what I hate, I can't refrain.

So far from God I seem to lie,
Which makes me often weep and cry;
I fear as last that I shall fall,
For if a saint, then least of all.

I seldom find a heart to pray,
So many things step in my way;
Thus filled with doubts, I ask to know,
Come, tell me, is it thus with you?

So by experience I do know,
There's nothing good that I can do;
I cannot satisfy the Law,
Nor hope, nor comfort from it draw.

My nature is so prone to sin
Which makes my doing so unclean
That when I count up all the cost
If not free Grace, then I am lost."​

BTW, yesterday I had minor surgery, which is why I had to shut my big mouth for awhile, and my pastor's wife picked me up and drove me home. While we were at the pharmacist's getting my pain prescription filled, I apparently was catty to someone, and I don't really even know what I said (on drugs at the time, of course). I just sort of "came to" hearing my pastor's wife making some sort of apology for me to someone else, to the effect that I was in pain and had just come out of anesthesia. Maybe I was just being unsteady on my feet and acting drunk, but I have the feeling I was nasty to someone, true to my nature if you will. Have no idea though. One of the saints of God, you think you would have said if you saw me then?

 

[Allan]

Ezekiel, chapter 37
10: So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11: Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: THEN shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through Knowledge (oops, I mean faith and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:



No, I think Paul was telling them to examine themselves and prove whether they were Christians or reprobates. He certainly was asking them "don't you know whether you have Christ or not"? It certainly was a question to them.

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

If you are testing yourself to see if you are in the faith, then you are testing yourselves to see if Jesus Christ is in you. If they KNEW, then there would of been no reason for the test.

Yes, IF you leave the rest of the verse in limbo and don't deal with it as well.
...Do you NOT know...unless you ARE reprobates. I already showed you WHO John was writting to...Those who were in sin, and those who have done nothing about it. This was chapter had a specific audience in mind and NOT the whole church but those who claimed to be part of the church and lived like they were not.
...do you not know...unless you are reprobates. It is a logical and biblical deduction. If you don't know then you are... Anyway, we are going in circles so I will back off.

My last question though: How can a person be saved (Changed life from sin, relationship with God, changed desire to have God as first in their life) and NOT know they are saved, since their life is no longer the same?

The only way I know, is if they are reprobates or still in their sin never having been saved/changed.