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Can you be saved and not know it?
- Thread starter Lacy Evans
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Christlifter
New Member
here is what I have learned by God's Grace!
I have been saved out of the Charismatic Movement and demon-possession, and I am an IFB. I am raisng my kids in an IFB Church that is Non-Hyles, and non-abusive, even though KJVP (TR-MT) and "Old-School". That doesn't mean we don't "mess up" either.
Here is an essay I have written on the errors in fundamentalist churches on salvation. This problem varies from church to church. I am not a Calvinist, but I do believe that God's Spirit must work for salvation to occur. That I agree with my predestianarian Hyper-Calvinist brethern in that, NO DOUBT. I cannot stand "easy-believism" which REALLY OUGHT TO BE CALLED "quick-nothingism, but a fat paycheck, for fatter-headed ""evangel-ism"" evangelist. I read Brother Bobs Old Regular Baptist website, and they have a good and more simple example of what I am referring to.
http://www.momof9splace.com/childsalvation.html
Look at the website first, and then read the commentary - God Bless!
Friends and Family,
Believe it or not, what is said about children, is also the process for adults.
HOW God brings people to conviction (convinced by THE EVIDENCE) of sin and "sinnerdom" or being a sinner, and puts the Gospel in their life, to cause repentance (change of mind) and faith (trust/belief) is as varied as there are created individuals.
BUT, there are GENERAL PRINCIPLES to be kept in mind on how a genuine salvation actually occurs.
In the general principle mindset I make the following statements:
No one is ever truly born again without trusting Christ as their Saviour that trust being based upon the FACT that He shed His Blood and died for their sin.
However, no one ever truly trusts Christ in this manner, until they are shown BY GOD (however He brings it about) that they are in fact, LOST, SINNERS, and ON THE WAY TO HELL due to their condition.
This (Conviction and Repentance) is called an "awakening" by the "old-schoolers", and whether it is for 30 seconds, or 30 years, it always precedes salvation.
We adults also, must be "awakened" convicted/convinced (cause to see - convinced by the evidence) our sins and sinfulness by the Holy Ghost. This will cause us to acknowledge that God is JUST to send us to Hell, for our rebellion.
Only strong preaching against sin, OR using the 10 Commandments to show sinners their sins, OR/AND the Holy Ghost of God can cause conviction.
The Holy Ghost is the Author of Biblical Conviction, and He uses the Conscience OR the Law, or His Own Power to convict.
Only these can "convince one as to the evidence against their hopes of Heaven" Any singular one or ALL of these can do it.
Holy Ghost Conviction (sin, righteousness and judgment in a real salvation experience) causes us to REPENT (change our mind), about our sins as ok, and our sinfulness as excusable. This will generate a TRUE desire to be free from sin (aka lifestyle) and receive Christ.
I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE SAVED OR PROVE OUR SALVATION BY WORKS. What this is all (Conviction of the Holy Ghost and Repentance) is referring to is the HEART-ATTITUDE, of the individual towards God, Sin, and Self.
Implied in this however is that we would also stop TRUSTING anything else (including a past profession of "faith" or false supernatural "experience" from Satan AND THOSE ABOUND IN THE LAST DAYS) and turn from our own way.
Salvation is not received by "asking Jesus into your heart", or merely "praying a sinners prayer" when one is not convicted of being a sinner. When you are convicted, you desire to repent.
There is nothing in Scripture about "asking Jesus in your heart", or any of those other pithy sayings that come to mind, when dealing with cruddy and wicked "mass evangelism" tactics. That is not to say the Holy Spirit does not indwell the heart of the believer (REGENERATION), and bring assurance, but He is not allowed to come in this way. The way of the cross leads home!
Once one is convicted and desires to repent, then they must TRUST the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, based on The Gospel that He has DONE for all sinners.
The Gospel: Christ shed His Blood for all sinners, to wash their sins away/blot them out, Died for all sinners-taking their Hell and punishment upon Himself, was buried, and Rose again (as the Perfect God-Man who never sinned) for all sinners, to give out eternal life, to those who repent from their sin (as convicted by the Holy Ghost) and trust Christ as their Saviour. They then receive eternal life, justification, righteousness, and assurance, by this simple act of faith. (YOU NEED TO LOOK UP THESE BIG WORDS!)
That, in turn leads us to truly trust Christ as Our LORD and SAVIOUR. This does not mean the Christian in now sinless, but He/She does "sin-less" than before CONVICTION AND REPENTANCE, and desires (though is not perfect in completing) to do God's Will, not the self's. Desires (heart-attitudes) change!
This ACTUAL AND ORIGINAL LEGITIMATE SALVATION EXPERIENCE is evidenced to the heart of an individual by I John...Read the Book of 1st John to see the portrait of a believer.
Some of the subjective experiences, mixed in with Biblical truth could be experienced as follows:
The indwelling Holy Ghost in the heart, the "lifted load" of sins, heart-belief that Jesus Christ is God, the awareness of the nearness of God, the desire to know God from His Word, the desire to pray, the Scripture opened and understandable, the desire to hear preaching, the desire to be around other saved people, the desire to see others saved, the hunger and thirst for righteousness, sin becomes painful and "icky" and once done, causes unalleviable grief until dealt with biblically, God using the person to reach others as he/she was reached, and he/she slowly changed (or changing) personality traits, where as things that were once acceptable, are no longer are.
Also, the heart of the person will no longer be "empty", and there won't be a "void" in the heart/life like "something’s missing", because the Holy Spirit will have taken up residence in that persons body, soul, and spirit. Sin will no longer satisfy, ONLY JESUS CHRIST!
There is such a "thing" as a carnal Christian. Conviction and Repentance, Faith and Salvation, continue in the life from point of origin (salvation), until death. Also the Christian will be absolutely miserable in acts of sin, and will have "stuff happen" in their life, even maybe death, to cause them to "get right". A real Christian, when walking in the flesh, for days or weeks or any indeterminate period of time will be the most miserable person on Earth.
Regardless of how deep (not as in a period of time, but actions/attitudes) into sin a real believer may go, they have always been convicted and repented in the beginning, and will always come back to the Lord Jesus Christ in humility and contrition, desiring to make it right, and have His pardon. They don't "leave and never come back". In the South they say "Well, if he is really saved, he'll be back." In the South too, it's said a lot, "You gotta get lost before you can get saved!"
HOWEVER, 75%-90% of people who think they fall into this category, or define themselves as that (and are for months and years), have never gone through these general salvation principles and Holy Ghost led experiences in their own life, and have merely a false "faith" or a simple head-knowledge about salvation. THEY NEVER FORWARD-SLID TO BACKSLIDE! They have never been convicted, repented, and trusted Christ. John 3:17-21 states that. Read it!
Only God knows (and that individual) if a "carnal" Christian is really saved or not.
Search the scripture about the purpose-work of the Law and Conscience in Paul's Epistles (Romans 2:14 - 8:30; The Book of Galatians) and read the Law (10 Commandments) in Exodus 20
Read up about the Holy Spirit and his work in John (14-17) regarding the lost and sinners, and read up on repentance and faith in Luke and Acts (Various verses).
Also, when reading about people being saved by faith in Christ, in the Scripture (The Gospels and Acts), notice their attitude (not work - I am not a hyper-Calvinist, faith and repentance are heart attitudes, not works) of Repentance when they come to Christ.
Remember, once a person is genuinely saved, they are no longer slaves to sin, or the Law. That's why we don't use the 10 commandments on true Christians, or anything else out of the Decalogue.
Try out what has been said here in dealing with yourself, your adult friends and family, and your children. Salvation is too serious to play games with, or get wrong. Eternity depends on it. Salvation is not complicated, but it does require some understanding of these things, IN THE HEART!
Too many people have grown up in Bible-Preaching churches, or been "evangelized" and are worse for it, because of the various reasons listed here and in the article submitted.
I just cannot reconcile on if: God foreknowing all things, brings this salvation to someone (like me!), foreknowing them to the uttermost, including their response (which means He is OMNISCIENT, not limited to merely foreordaining events and people) OR He just "mysteriously" chooses and picks people to bring to the truth (like me!) since there is and "elect"! I CAN ONLY say:
YES!
PRAISE GOD! LET PREACH THE GOSPEL IN GOD'S POWER, GOD'S WAY, so GOD CAN GET THE GLORY IN SAVING SINNERS! AAAAAAAAAMEN!!
God Bless you all, and Jesus Saves sinners (like me/us!)
I have been saved out of the Charismatic Movement and demon-possession, and I am an IFB. I am raisng my kids in an IFB Church that is Non-Hyles, and non-abusive, even though KJVP (TR-MT) and "Old-School". That doesn't mean we don't "mess up" either.
Here is an essay I have written on the errors in fundamentalist churches on salvation. This problem varies from church to church. I am not a Calvinist, but I do believe that God's Spirit must work for salvation to occur. That I agree with my predestianarian Hyper-Calvinist brethern in that, NO DOUBT. I cannot stand "easy-believism" which REALLY OUGHT TO BE CALLED "quick-nothingism, but a fat paycheck, for fatter-headed ""evangel-ism"" evangelist. I read Brother Bobs Old Regular Baptist website, and they have a good and more simple example of what I am referring to.
http://www.momof9splace.com/childsalvation.html
Look at the website first, and then read the commentary - God Bless!
Friends and Family,
Believe it or not, what is said about children, is also the process for adults.
HOW God brings people to conviction (convinced by THE EVIDENCE) of sin and "sinnerdom" or being a sinner, and puts the Gospel in their life, to cause repentance (change of mind) and faith (trust/belief) is as varied as there are created individuals.
BUT, there are GENERAL PRINCIPLES to be kept in mind on how a genuine salvation actually occurs.
In the general principle mindset I make the following statements:
No one is ever truly born again without trusting Christ as their Saviour that trust being based upon the FACT that He shed His Blood and died for their sin.
However, no one ever truly trusts Christ in this manner, until they are shown BY GOD (however He brings it about) that they are in fact, LOST, SINNERS, and ON THE WAY TO HELL due to their condition.
This (Conviction and Repentance) is called an "awakening" by the "old-schoolers", and whether it is for 30 seconds, or 30 years, it always precedes salvation.
We adults also, must be "awakened" convicted/convinced (cause to see - convinced by the evidence) our sins and sinfulness by the Holy Ghost. This will cause us to acknowledge that God is JUST to send us to Hell, for our rebellion.
Only strong preaching against sin, OR using the 10 Commandments to show sinners their sins, OR/AND the Holy Ghost of God can cause conviction.
The Holy Ghost is the Author of Biblical Conviction, and He uses the Conscience OR the Law, or His Own Power to convict.
Only these can "convince one as to the evidence against their hopes of Heaven" Any singular one or ALL of these can do it.
Holy Ghost Conviction (sin, righteousness and judgment in a real salvation experience) causes us to REPENT (change our mind), about our sins as ok, and our sinfulness as excusable. This will generate a TRUE desire to be free from sin (aka lifestyle) and receive Christ.
I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE SAVED OR PROVE OUR SALVATION BY WORKS. What this is all (Conviction of the Holy Ghost and Repentance) is referring to is the HEART-ATTITUDE, of the individual towards God, Sin, and Self.
Implied in this however is that we would also stop TRUSTING anything else (including a past profession of "faith" or false supernatural "experience" from Satan AND THOSE ABOUND IN THE LAST DAYS) and turn from our own way.
Salvation is not received by "asking Jesus into your heart", or merely "praying a sinners prayer" when one is not convicted of being a sinner. When you are convicted, you desire to repent.
There is nothing in Scripture about "asking Jesus in your heart", or any of those other pithy sayings that come to mind, when dealing with cruddy and wicked "mass evangelism" tactics. That is not to say the Holy Spirit does not indwell the heart of the believer (REGENERATION), and bring assurance, but He is not allowed to come in this way. The way of the cross leads home!
Once one is convicted and desires to repent, then they must TRUST the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, based on The Gospel that He has DONE for all sinners.
The Gospel: Christ shed His Blood for all sinners, to wash their sins away/blot them out, Died for all sinners-taking their Hell and punishment upon Himself, was buried, and Rose again (as the Perfect God-Man who never sinned) for all sinners, to give out eternal life, to those who repent from their sin (as convicted by the Holy Ghost) and trust Christ as their Saviour. They then receive eternal life, justification, righteousness, and assurance, by this simple act of faith. (YOU NEED TO LOOK UP THESE BIG WORDS!)
That, in turn leads us to truly trust Christ as Our LORD and SAVIOUR. This does not mean the Christian in now sinless, but He/She does "sin-less" than before CONVICTION AND REPENTANCE, and desires (though is not perfect in completing) to do God's Will, not the self's. Desires (heart-attitudes) change!
This ACTUAL AND ORIGINAL LEGITIMATE SALVATION EXPERIENCE is evidenced to the heart of an individual by I John...Read the Book of 1st John to see the portrait of a believer.
Some of the subjective experiences, mixed in with Biblical truth could be experienced as follows:
The indwelling Holy Ghost in the heart, the "lifted load" of sins, heart-belief that Jesus Christ is God, the awareness of the nearness of God, the desire to know God from His Word, the desire to pray, the Scripture opened and understandable, the desire to hear preaching, the desire to be around other saved people, the desire to see others saved, the hunger and thirst for righteousness, sin becomes painful and "icky" and once done, causes unalleviable grief until dealt with biblically, God using the person to reach others as he/she was reached, and he/she slowly changed (or changing) personality traits, where as things that were once acceptable, are no longer are.
Also, the heart of the person will no longer be "empty", and there won't be a "void" in the heart/life like "something’s missing", because the Holy Spirit will have taken up residence in that persons body, soul, and spirit. Sin will no longer satisfy, ONLY JESUS CHRIST!
There is such a "thing" as a carnal Christian. Conviction and Repentance, Faith and Salvation, continue in the life from point of origin (salvation), until death. Also the Christian will be absolutely miserable in acts of sin, and will have "stuff happen" in their life, even maybe death, to cause them to "get right". A real Christian, when walking in the flesh, for days or weeks or any indeterminate period of time will be the most miserable person on Earth.
Regardless of how deep (not as in a period of time, but actions/attitudes) into sin a real believer may go, they have always been convicted and repented in the beginning, and will always come back to the Lord Jesus Christ in humility and contrition, desiring to make it right, and have His pardon. They don't "leave and never come back". In the South they say "Well, if he is really saved, he'll be back." In the South too, it's said a lot, "You gotta get lost before you can get saved!"
HOWEVER, 75%-90% of people who think they fall into this category, or define themselves as that (and are for months and years), have never gone through these general salvation principles and Holy Ghost led experiences in their own life, and have merely a false "faith" or a simple head-knowledge about salvation. THEY NEVER FORWARD-SLID TO BACKSLIDE! They have never been convicted, repented, and trusted Christ. John 3:17-21 states that. Read it!
Only God knows (and that individual) if a "carnal" Christian is really saved or not.
Search the scripture about the purpose-work of the Law and Conscience in Paul's Epistles (Romans 2:14 - 8:30; The Book of Galatians) and read the Law (10 Commandments) in Exodus 20
Read up about the Holy Spirit and his work in John (14-17) regarding the lost and sinners, and read up on repentance and faith in Luke and Acts (Various verses).
Also, when reading about people being saved by faith in Christ, in the Scripture (The Gospels and Acts), notice their attitude (not work - I am not a hyper-Calvinist, faith and repentance are heart attitudes, not works) of Repentance when they come to Christ.
Remember, once a person is genuinely saved, they are no longer slaves to sin, or the Law. That's why we don't use the 10 commandments on true Christians, or anything else out of the Decalogue.
Try out what has been said here in dealing with yourself, your adult friends and family, and your children. Salvation is too serious to play games with, or get wrong. Eternity depends on it. Salvation is not complicated, but it does require some understanding of these things, IN THE HEART!
Too many people have grown up in Bible-Preaching churches, or been "evangelized" and are worse for it, because of the various reasons listed here and in the article submitted.
I just cannot reconcile on if: God foreknowing all things, brings this salvation to someone (like me!), foreknowing them to the uttermost, including their response (which means He is OMNISCIENT, not limited to merely foreordaining events and people) OR He just "mysteriously" chooses and picks people to bring to the truth (like me!) since there is and "elect"! I CAN ONLY say:
YES!
PRAISE GOD! LET PREACH THE GOSPEL IN GOD'S POWER, GOD'S WAY, so GOD CAN GET THE GLORY IN SAVING SINNERS! AAAAAAAAAMEN!!
God Bless you all, and Jesus Saves sinners (like me/us!)
Salamander
New Member
Glad you're back, hope all is well.
I let the Lord do all the judging, and it is He that tells us all that to resist the devil and he will flee. My saying is justified in that He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world.
Only a devil would try to tell any Christian that they cannot KNOW they are SAVED!
I have never said anyone who doesn't believe as I do is of the devil, but i will say that only a devil would influence anyone to deny believing the Bible when it comes to KNOWING one is saved.
I see the only way you can think yourself to be justified is to put words into others mouths and twist what they say to fit your presumptions: that, Sir, is SIN.
If you want to really talk about judging people, you'd best re-read Matthew 7.
I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day. I know i'm still in the Bible, but why is it you try to negate the Word of God?
I've committed my measure of faith to Him that is more than Abel.
I know I am saved, I don't just believe it, I don't have a "hope so" salvation.
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Salamander
New Member
Thought you were the one who says we can only belive and not know? You're confused, or trying to confuse.pinoybaptist said:
Brother Bob
New Member
You believe you "know" and that is all you can do. Now I guess that means you are calling me the "devil".
You wish me well and then call me a devil. You are one weird dude.
Couldn't have said it in few words much better than bapmom. StraightandNarrow continues to fail to make any distinction between the free gift of salvation by faith alone, and service/discipleship which entails every work we do, following the reception of that free gift. Scripture does make this distinction, as I read it.bapmom said:
Ed
Salamander
New Member
Well, you deny the Scriptures that give the believer Blessed assurance of salvation.Brother Bob said:
It all comes down to whether you believe the Bible or not.
You beliefs deny the Bible, so go figure.
I know I have the Word of God, what is it you have: your "belief".
I'm saved according to the Bible. The Bible tells me I can know it. I know it.
Salamander
New Member
I have a faith that works, not works that merit salvation: that is according to James I.EdSutton said:
Faith without works is DEAD. So quit trying to confuse the two.
Actually, I don't believe the LORD ever called Cyrus "righteous", at least in Isa. 45. He did say "I raised him up in righteousness" i.e. 'in a righteous manner', but that is not saying exactly the same thing.bapmom said:
However you are entirely right that the woman at the well and old 'Nicky' were probably not saved before meeting Jesus, for they had not believed on Him. And salvation is always by faith, in each and every dispensation, and the context certainly suggests, if not demands, that this occurred after the encounters with Jesus.
I John 5, alone, should tell us that one does not necessarily "know for certain" they are in fact saved, upon believing, but that this can be known and in fact should be.
Ed
Brother Bob
New Member
When you say you have a faith that works you are agreeing with me and don't know it. You got it right, let it be. You don't want a dead faith do you. You don't want to go so far you make faith void do you? Enjoy your knowledge but it comes from your faith.
I don't try to confuse the two at all. I believe that everyone's faith should work. Mine does. But the attempt to "backload' works into faith by (some) saying if one does not have these 'undefined' and 'unspecified' works (that meet up to their never stated standards, of course) then one is not or was not ever "really, genuinely, absolutely, truly (and whatever additional adverbs one chooses to inject, here)" saved in the first place is misguided, at best. And the attempted 'differentiation' between so-called 'meritorious works' and so-called 'non-meritorious works' 'contained in 'saving faith' is still adding works to faith,= for Scripture knows no such distinction between meritorious and non-meritorious 'works'. Not to mention the argument contradicts Abraham, David and PaulSalamander said:
Yes, our works are how
But what this verse does not say (and what is usually read into it, unfortunately) is that if you don't see, one was never saved/justified in the first place. But it is certainly a bad testimony, at best.
I was never called to be a "tare plucker", nor do I find in Scripture that any apart from the angels are called thusly. But I am surprised that so many seem to think they somehow are "sprouting wings".
Ed
Brother Bob
New Member
Ed;
Do you acknowledge that some have to be keepers of the church, and sometimes that is not very easy to deal with, and may even take some harshness to handle it. You don't really think its one bed of roses do you?
I don't care what kind of group it is, a church, business, outing whatever. There must be some kind of order, and there have to be some who are called to do that. It would be nice to just sit back, like you say you do, unfortunantly all of us cannot do that. You do know, every how many members you have, is how many different minds you have, on what to do about almost everything. Someone has to listen, make a decision and say we will go this way, whether its the Pastor and Deacons or what. Usually the Pastor has the final say. When something goes wrong, it is for sure, he has the final say, for it all falls on him. The scripture of the "tares and the wheat", is not the only scripture in the Bible on how to handle the church.
Do you acknowledge that some have to be keepers of the church, and sometimes that is not very easy to deal with, and may even take some harshness to handle it. You don't really think its one bed of roses do you?
I don't care what kind of group it is, a church, business, outing whatever. There must be some kind of order, and there have to be some who are called to do that. It would be nice to just sit back, like you say you do, unfortunantly all of us cannot do that. You do know, every how many members you have, is how many different minds you have, on what to do about almost everything. Someone has to listen, make a decision and say we will go this way, whether its the Pastor and Deacons or what. Usually the Pastor has the final say. When something goes wrong, it is for sure, he has the final say, for it all falls on him. The scripture of the "tares and the wheat", is not the only scripture in the Bible on how to handle the church.
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I don't recall anything about saying "I sit back" at all. The bishop/elders (note that is plural, Biblically) are to be the "keepers" of the church, as I see it, not any particular individual, and certainly not me, as one person. I can and have the responsibility to observe, correct, exhort, etc., and when necessary take it before the church. That is entirely Biblical. And it may well take "harshness" to handle it, like the man in I Cor. that was openly 'having his father's wife', for an example.Brother Bob said:
One might even have to leave, and find another church, should the church not deal with such.
But I do not see that it is Biblical to be running around with a magnifying glass, hunting under every rock, seeing whatever semblance of some potential sin I can and might find, like I am some KY version of Inspector Clouseau.
Ed
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Brother Bob
New Member
I don't know anyone who does that, do you? I am sure there are plenty who want that kind of job, but they can have it, I don't want it. Also, if you read my post, I said the Pastor and Deacons. It does not run like a fine Swiss watch all the time. Pastors don't have the authority to order people around but they didn't get to be Pastors without having leadership qualities where people most of the time will follow his lead, or take his advice.
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Salamander
New Member
My faith is evidenced by the works i do according to the promptings of the Holy Ghost.Brother Bob said:
I only have faith due to the fact the Lord gives every man the measure of faith to believe.
It then becomes a secondary effort on my behalf to excercise that faith imparted to me to believe "ON" the Lord Jesus Christ.
Once I have excercised that measure of faith, I have received the Lord Jesus, it is then the Holy Ghost indwells me. That same Holy Ghost takes up abode in my heart and when that happens, everyone who is saved KNOWS IT!
Now that does NOT mean that doubts will come. The devil will try to assail one with doubts and attempt to overthrow their faith, BUT! The Holy Ghost is not an illegitimate Father, He will not leave one of His dear children drowning in the sea of doubt. Either of two things will happen, the Holy Ghost WILL rescue us from that sea of doubt giving Blessed Assurance, or, the Holy Ghost will convict the sinner and SAVE them from their false profession and every sin they will,have, or are, committing.
A person KNOWS they are saved according to many verses in our Bible, specifically:
Hbr 12:1¶Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hbr 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hbr 12:3¶For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hbr 12:4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=5&version=KJV#5
Hbr 12:5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=6&version=KJV#6
Hbr 12:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=7&version=KJV#7
Hbr 12:7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=8&version=KJV#8
Hbr 12:8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=9&version=KJV#9
Hbr 12:9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=10&version=KJV#10
Hbr 12:10For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=12&verse=11&version=KJV#11
Hbr 12:11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
You have said that one only believes they are saved according to their faith, that is only the beginning of knowledge of salvation.
Faith alone is dead, so my knowledge coupled with my faith advances me to move forward in my walk with Christ and is evidenced by the fruit I bear as the Spirit works in me and through me. I know it! I see the substance of faith. I can also testify, along with others, of the evidences of what I know to be true and according to the Word of God.
II Cor 5:17 is another proof text to knowing one is saved.
Salamander
New Member
A study in I John will show anyone the works that are directly inline with James I.EdSutton said:I don't try to confuse the two at all. I believe that everyone's faith should work. Mine does. But the attempt to "backload' works into faith by (some) saying if one does not have these 'undefined' and 'unspecified' works (that meet up to their never stated standards, of course) then one is not or was not ever "really, genuinely, absolutely, truly (and whatever additional adverbs one chooses to inject, here)" saved in the first place is misguided, at best. And the attempted 'differentiation' between so-called 'meritorious works' and so-called 'non-meritorious works' 'contained in 'saving faith' is still adding works to faith,= for Scripture knows no such distinction between meritorious and non-meritorious 'works'. Not to mention the argument contradicts Abraham, David and Paul Yes, our works are how But what this verse does not say (and what is usually read into it, unfortunately) is that if you don't see, one was never saved/justified in the first place. But it is certainly a bad testimony, at best.
I was never called to be a "tare plucker", nor do I find in Scripture that any apart from the angels are called thusly. But I am surprised that so many seem to think they somehow are "sprouting wings".
Ed
"Tare plucker"? Not me, I just preach the Word and let the Lord separate the tares from the wheat, and He has, in the area of ministry I am called to do at this present time.
I have seen many who would otherwise disrupt our services, leave cursing, railing, etc. and not be back since.
I am grieved they left in such a state, but I do know they could come back and be transformed by the power of God into wheat, but they continue to choose to remain tares.
II Cor 5:17 is also an excellent reference verse to that truth.
Can they come back? SURE!
Will they come in and disrupt? Not for more than a minute!
Brother Bob
New Member
I just love the above. You "know" but you have doubts. That is double talk. That is why its all by "faith", can't you see that. Again, Know all you want but just realize that knowledge comes by "faith" of which allows "doubts" from time to time.
I don't care who says they "know", if questioned long enough they will have to admit they have had doubts and when they do that their "absolute" knowledge goes out the window.
Had a person come to my house one evening with "Know" and when he left at 4:00 am the next morning he had already admitted that there had been doubts from time to time and then he realized that his absolute was depended on how much faith he had. He said he would be back after studying some more but never seen him and that was at least 10 years ago.
It don't bother me that you "know", and I realize you have scripture for it that His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God but then along comes that fleshly man with the thorn in the flesh.
You need to study who has the knowledge and there is an outward man and an inward man and to testify you "know", then you would of had to "receive". Well, the outward man is still waiting until the resurrection. It is the inward man that is "born again". It is the inward man that has knowledge. It is the inward man that has been washed in the blood of the Lamb. God Bless,
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Salamander
New Member
I do, unfortunately. This fellow has whittled his congregation down from 250 to about 20 due to his "meddling"Brother Bob said:
I've heard him and his brother both preach great messages, but they are just alike in what they have done to people. They will in no doubt answer to God for what they have done, but everyone who insists on certain standards in the church are not like these two men.
I even "caught" the one asking my brother-in-law about me in "hopes" of getting some dirt on me to "dis-associate" me and my family from "their" fellowship. That was a waste of their time, I just avoided them from that point on, not my brother-in-law. I woulod still be hospitable and extend the right hand of fellowship, but not as if I have been looking forward to that!
Brother Bob
New Member
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