Can you be saved and not know it?

[Salamander]

I just love the above. You "know" but you have doubts. That is double talk. That is why its all by "faith", can't you see that. Again, Know all you want but just realize that knowledge comes by "faith" of which allows "doubts" from time to time.
I don't care who says they "know", if questioned long enough they will have to admit they have had doubts and when they do that their "absolute" knowledge goes out the window.

Oh? You love it when the devil persecutes God's children causing them to doubt? You would speak as if Peter, and many other disciples, had no assurance of salvation.

Something is true, satan does all he can to hinder the child of God. He causes questioning of their salvation, but God always assures them they are His inspite of satan's howlings.


I, myself, don't love anything the devil does.

Had a person come to my house one evening with "Know" and when he left at 4:00 am the next morning he had already admitted that he there had been doubts from time to time and then he realized that his absolute was depended on how much faith he had. He said he would be back after studying some more but never seen him and that was at least 10 years ago.

I would do all I could to look this fellow up and besure to show him

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

My faith wavers and is effected by circumstances at times, satan is sure to be the instigater of many of those.

The fact I am saved is never effected by my wavering faith which can also be alluded to as doubt. But I always rely on God's faithfulness, never mine alone, mainly because I have feelings that are effected by circumstances.

It don't bother me that you "know", and I realize you have scripture for it that His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God but then along comes that fleshly man with the thorn in the flesh.
You need to study who has the knowledge and there is an outward man and an inward man and to testify you "know", then you would of had to "receive". Well, the outward man is still waiting until the resurrection. It is the inward man that is "born again". It is the inward man that has knowledge. It is the inward man that has been washed in the blood of the Lamb. God Bless,

And this inward man knows it as well as the outward man knows it.

The fact still remains: I am saved by grace through faith. Faith alone is dead. My resurrected spirit is given assurance from His Spirit. I know I am saved!

Everytime I take the devil back to where and when the Lord saved me, even he knows it!

 

[DHK]

The OP is: Can you be saved and not know it?
I haven't gone through and read every page of this thread, but consider this Scripture:

2 Peter 2:7-8 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

This just and righteous man is the same man who offered his virgin daughters to be abused by a homosexual crowd. How do we justify that? There is no way that Brother Bob and many others posting here would accept Lot as a Christan, were it not for this portion of Scripture. Perhaps they still don't. If such a person did a similar thing to day, the automatic reaction would be--he's not saved--a total judgement, when only God knows the heart.

Many Christians backslide into a sinful condition like Lot where they are no longer bearing fruit. Because they are not bearing fruit at that time in their lives does that make them any less a child of God? No. Because my child is not living the way I want him to live, does it make him any less my child? No. In that respect, think of the prodigal son. Because he lived a prolifigate life he wasn't disowned by his father. His lack of fruit didn't mean he wasn't a Christian. Yet some of you would judge him thus.
Only God knows the heart.

The prodigal son had to come to his own senses. He had to come to the realization that he was living in sin and that he needed to be restored to a right relationship with his Father. There may have been times in his life where, not only did he think himself not worthy to be a part of the family," but he probably thought he was kicked out of the family--disowned (no longer a Christian). Such discouragement has come to many a Christian. It is called a "lack of assurance of salvation." That doesn't mean they are any less a Christian. Can a Christian be a Christian without knowing it? Yes, if they are living in sin; if they are backslidden; if they are discouraged; if they have lost their assurance of salvation; if their relationship with Christ is not right.
Many Christians have sunk deep into the depths of despair, only to wonder if they were really saved, until the hand of Jesus touched them; spoke to them, and lifted them up once again. "A just man falls seven times, and rises again."

 

[Brother Bob]

My faith wavers and is effected by circumstances at times, satan is sure to be the instigater of many of those.

The fact I am saved is never effected by my wavering faith which can also be alluded to as doubt. But I always rely on God's faithfulness, never mine alone, mainly because I have feelings that are effected by circumstances.

This is double tongued. "your faith wavers" but you still "know". hogwash.

 

[Brother Bob]

Many Christians backslide into a sinful condition like Lot where they are no longer bearing fruit. Because they are not bearing fruit at that time in their lives does that make them any less a child of God? No. Because my child is not living the way I want him to live, does it make him any less my child? No. In that respect, think of the prodigal son. Because he lived a prolifigate life he wasn't disowned by his father. His lack of fruit didn't mean he wasn't a Christian. Yet some of you would judge him thus.
Only God knows the heart

Good to hear from you DHK;
The above is hogwash, the prodigal son was a servant of the devil while away from the father. If he was a Christian, then there is not reason to be saved.

But not all, you do acknowledge that a person don't have "absolute" knowledge or at least I think that is what you are saying.

 

[DHK]

Good to hear from you DHK;
The above is hogwash, the prodigal son was a servant of the devil while away from the father. If he was a Christian, then there is not reason to be saved.

If he was not a Christian, then he was not a son, and the whole story would be a lie. It would make Christ a liar also. Is there a time when children are no longer children. Is there a time when the genes of an individual change and become someone else's genes?

 

[Brother Bob]

If he was not a Christian, then he was not a son, and the whole story would be a lie. It would make Christ a liar also. Is there a time when children are no longer children. Is there a time when the genes of an individual change and become someone else's genes?
__________________
DHK

Luk 15:24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jhn 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


I really have missed you. I haven't had a good argument since mine and your last one.

 

[DHK]

Luk 15:24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


I really have missed you. I haven't had a good argument since mine and your last one.

The son had been missing, and the father thought that he was dead, just as Jacob had considered Joseph was dead. The son was lost, physically, just as Joseph was lost to Jacob, and was no found. You can draw spiritual allegories from that if you wish. But that is the Biblical interpretation of the passage.
Just as Joseph was never considered outside of the family of Jacob, not a child of Jacob, not disowned by Jacob; so the father never disowned his son. He always was watching for him; waiting for him; hoping for his return. Never once in the entire passsage do we have any indication that he was put out of the family. In fact just the opposite is true. We have a loving expectant father waiting for his beloved son to return.

 

[Brother Bob]

Just as Joseph was never considered outside of the family of Jacob, not a child of Jacob, not disowned by Jacob; so the father never disowned his son. He always was watching for him; waiting for him; hoping for his return. Never once in the entire passsage do we have any indication that he was put out of the family. In fact just the opposite is true. We have a loving expectant father waiting for his beloved son to return.__________________
DHK

So is God watching and looking for all men to come home but they all will not.

I just gave you a scripture that which is flesh is flesh, now you are using the prodigal son as spiritual so that which is spirit is spirit and he was lost and he was dead, you can take your pick.

I say we are all God's by creation, he is the one who gave all breath.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't think you can compare Joseph to the prodigal son. Two different situations. Joseph was considered physically dead because his brothers had lied to their father and told him that Joseph was killed by an animal. This is a story of the faith and obediance of Joseph and God's reward of it.

The prodigal son was considered dead not because his father believed something bad had happened to him, but because according to Jewish law/tradition if a son asked for his inheritance before the death of his father it meant he was saying that he wished his father was dead and wanted no part in the family. A son who did such a thing was pronounced 'dead' by the father and from that point on had no right to anything of the father's. No inheritance, no contact, no anything. He was no longer a member of the family...dead. This story is a picture of God's grace. While the son had no rights and was cut off, the father still loved him and forgave him because of the son's sorrow and broken spirit. The same thing that we do today when we accept the forgiveness and grace of Christ for salvation.

 

[DHK]

I don't think you can compare Joseph to the prodigal son. Two different situations. Joseph was considered physically dead because his brothers had lied to their father and told him that Joseph was killed by an animal. This is a story of the faith and obediance of Joseph and God's reward of it.

The prodigal son was considered dead not because his father believed something bad had happened to him, but because according to Jewish law/tradition if a son asked for his inheritance before the death of his father it meant he was saying that he wished his father was dead and wanted no part in the family. A son who did such a thing was pronounced 'dead' by the father and from that point on had no right to anything of the father's. No inheritance, no contact, no anything. He was no longer a member of the family...dead. This story is a picture of God's grace. While the son had no rights and was cut off, the father still loved him and forgave him because of the son's sorrow and broken spirit. The same thing that we do today when we accept the forgiveness and grace of Christ for salvation.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You can spin that story any way you want Amy. A son is a son is a son. Those born into this world spiritually are children of the devil (John 8:44). Thus the necessity of the new birth. "You must be born again." You must be born into God's family. Once born into God's family he will never disown you.

In the parable the son was already born into the Father's family. He was already one of the two sons with a righteous standing before the father. He went astray. He came back. He was a son before he went astray. He was a son when he came back. His father loved him before he went astray and loved him when he came back. It is not about salvation. Spin it that way if you wish. It is about a son who has gone astray. He is the father's son, and you cannot deny that fact.

 

[DHK]

I say we are all God's by creation, he is the one who gave all breath.

But that is not a true statement. Read John 8:44. Those that are born into this world are automatically children of the devil; thus they need to be born again. If you are born once you will die twice.
If you are born twice, you wiil die once.

 

[Amy.G]

Well DHK, if you really want to get down to brass tacks, the story of the prodigal son was a parable told by Jesus to the Jews (not Gentiles). The Jews were God's sons, but they had turned their backs on Him, the same thing the prodigal son did. He was telling them to turn back to Him and accept their Messiah. They did not do that, so God extended His mercy to the Gentiles. So this isn't a story of the salvation of the Gentiles (you and me, we were never part of God's family, but grafted in later), but one meant to call the Jews back to Him.
However, it is also about God's grace toward all of us.


Matthew 23
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"*

Got to go to town right now. I'll check back later.

 

[Salamander]

Good to hear from you DHK;
The above is hogwash, the prodigal son was a servant of the devil while away from the father. If he was a Christian, then there is not reason to be saved.

But not all, you do acknowledge that a person don't have "absolute" knowledge or at least I think that is what you are saying.

Hogwash is what came off him when he looked back at his "FATHERS" house.

If you're going to try and establish doctrine from a parable, this one declares the prodigal as a "son", therefore he was saved all along,.

 

[Salamander]

This is double tongued. "your faith wavers" but you still "know". hogwash.

Not true, nothing "double-togued' about it.

You need to learn to separate what feelings will do to ones faith verses the facts of salvation.

The facts don't change, but feelings do, faith is effected.

One day I may not even know my name, but the fact I am saved will never change. I know that as we speak, but circumstances can change and feelings go along with them.

Faith rests between feelings and the facts. I rely solely upon the facts of His being faithful rather than rely upon my faith which waivers.

But I suppose you to be a man of great faith and have never faced doubts.

Your example of dealing with that man whom you haven't seen in ten years is pitiful. I'd hate to know at the Judgement Seat of Christ I had to answer for what you did to that man.

Let all things be done to edification, you caused the man to go away sorrowful by your rhetoric.

The Bible teaches we can know we're saved. You're teaching something diametrically opposed to Scripture.

"Let God be true and every man a liar"

Study the context of that, friend, it doesn't mean everyman who places his trust in Christ is a liar, only those who try to negate God's Word and His promises to His Beloved.

 

[EdSutton]

I don't know anyone who does that, do you? I am sure there are plenty who want that kind of job, but they can have it, I don't want it. Also, if you read my post, I said the Pastor and Deacons. It does not run like a fine Swiss watch all the time. Pastors don't have the authority to order people around but they didn't get to be Pastors without having leadership qualities where people most of the time will follow his lead, or take his advice.

Actually, you edited to add the pastors and deacons after I replied, for I did not snip any of your post, as it appeared when I hit quote in replying. So the pastor and deacon statement was after the fact.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Well DHK, if you really want to get down to brass tacks, the story of the prodigal son was a parable told by Jesus to the Jews (not Gentiles). The Jews were God's sons, but they had turned their backs on Him, the same thing the prodigal son did. He was telling them to turn back to Him and accept their Messiah. They did not do that, so God extended His mercy to the Gentiles. So this isn't a story of the salvation of the Gentiles (you and me, we were never part of God's family, but grafted in later), but one meant to call the Jews back to Him.
However, it is also about God's grace toward all of us.


Matthew 23
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"*

Got to go to town right now. I'll check back later.

I ain't DHK, but I will chime in, anyway. For everyone, not just Amy.G!

The Scripture never identifies the story of the father and his two sons, both of which were "out-of-fellowship" with the father, as a parable. The uses of the term "certain man", hence marking out a specific individual, without identifying him personally, is not normally used in parables. And in fact, there is a clear distinction which all 'red-letter' editions (which I really dislike, BTW) make between the actual quotes from Jesus and what the writer, here Luke, wrote as well. It is only about two or three words, between 'discourses' but it is nonetheless discernable.
So I'll repeat. It ain't a parable and neither son ever ceased to be a son in the father's eyes. And that was what mattered, to the father. And likewise, that is what matters to our Heavenly Father. His POV!

BTW, Scripture never says that the onery, self-righteous, obnoxious, judgmental, pharisaical, elder brother ever got back into fellowship with the father, even though he was to receive his full inheritance, but the so-called 'prodigal' did!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Actually, you edited to add the pastors and deacons after I replied, for I did not snip any of your post, as it appeared when I hit quote in replying. So the pastor and deacon statement was after the fact.

Ed

What do you think the edit button is for. We know there are people just waiting to find fault. I always read my post and try and catch anything the stalkers are waiting for.

BTW, Scripture never says that the onery, self-righteous, obnoxious, judgmental, pharisaical, elder brother ever got back into fellowship with the father, even though he was to receive his full inheritance, but the so-called 'prodigal' did!

Ed

I don't remember reading where he was ever out of fellowship with the Father? Help!

 

[Brother Bob]

But that is not a true statement. Read John 8:44. Those that are born into this world are automatically children of the devil; thus they need to be born again. If you are born once you will die twice.
If you are born twice, you wiil die once.__________________
DHK

Not true, if you are born and die in sin unless "born again" you will die 2 more times but if "born again" then you will only die the natural death.

I give my children my "seed" and they are my children. God gives his creation "breath" therefore they are his by creation for He is the one who will take that breath. The devil did not give them life, God did.

Show me where the devil conceived men?

 

[Brother Bob]

If you're going to try and establish doctrine from a parable, this one declares the prodigal as a "son", therefore he was saved all along,.

If you want to call him a son, then he was a dead son. Also says he was "lost and dead", if that son had never returned home the Father was not going after him so therefore he would of stayed dead and lost to the Father.

Sal; Your example of dealing with that man whom you haven't seen in ten years is pitiful. I'd hate to know at the Judgement Seat of Christ I had to answer for what you did to that man.

Oh, but I see him a lot, as a matter of fact, I pick him up and take him fishing ever summer. I told him the truth and the truth will stand when the world is on fire. He has every opportunity to explain but all he has is what you give which is unstable. You would tell him something to cause him to settle down on blind faith. IMO, I tell him the truth.

Sal; The Bible teaches we can know we're saved. You're teaching something diametrically opposed to Scripture.

Bible teaches we are saved by Faith, by Hope, by Grace, you just can't connect the dots. You read John and say "well thats it".

Sal; I have seen many who would otherwise disrupt our services, leave cursing, railing, etc. and not be back since.

I am grieved they left in such a state, but I do know they could come back and be transformed by the power of God into wheat, but they continue to choose to remain tares.

I was wondering if the reason the man left cussing is because you called him the devil?

 

[Brother Bob]

So I'll repeat. It ain't a parable and neither son ever ceased to be a son in the father's eyes. And that was what mattered, to the father. And likewise, that is what matters to our Heavenly Father. His POV!
ED;

He was "dead and lost" to the Father and unless he repented, he would of stayed that way. The Father could of made him come home but he didn't. You sin, You repent!