Can you be saved and not know it?

[EdSutton]

All these people were lost when these scriptures were preached to them Ed;

Well, not those spoken of in Acts 11:18, as they had already repented (believed, the 'flip-side' of repented, so to speak), hence were saved. The rest did have to come to "repentance toward God" (change their mind or thinking about who Jesus was, and what God required) in order to be saved. I fully agree here and 'preach' the same thing as did the apostles and Jesus.

"Repent"? Absolutely!! One cannot be saved apart from faith/repentance toward God! That is absolutely Biblical!!

"Repent of/from your sins"?? Still not found in Scripture (and all the verses anyone can quote still do not say this), as any 'requirement' to be saved!!

What is the sole Biblical requirement (and answer to the direct question) is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved!"

Nothing more; nothing less!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

"Repent"? Absolutely!! One cannot be saved apart from faith/repentance toward God! That is absolutely Biblical!!

"Repent of/from your sins"?? Still not found in Scripture (and all the verses anyone can quote still do not say this), as any 'requirement' to be saved!!

What is the sole Biblical requirement and answer to the direct question is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved!"

Nothing more; nothing less!

Ed

Ed; Believing from the heart entails a lot more than you want to put together but you do it separately. I agree that Belief is what it takes to be saved but I believe that Belief means to believe, repent, be baptized by the Holy Ghost. If you take all the scriptures and realize when the scripture says to believe on the Lord and Savour, Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, it is talking about all of the above.

You seem to agree by the posts you just made but you don't seem to realize that "to believe" entails it all.

 

[DHK]

Unforgiven sins. Think about it a while, if all sins were forgiven there would be no LOST.

Your quote Bob--word for word:

I have made no such claim that any sin can't be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. I do believe that the believers don't commit such actions as homosexuality, adultereous and etc. I believe God's Grace is stronger than that but apparently you don't.

There is no exception clause with God. He forgives all sins. But you have an exception clause. Not only do you stop at that one sin. You go on to mention others. It is just cloaked in other words.

do believe that the believers don't commit such actions as homosexuality, adultereous and etc. I believe God's Grace is stronger than that but apparently you don't.

If a believer commits these sins God won't forgive them either, even though they already have been forgiven at the time of salvation. God forgives all our sins. But you don't beleive that. You don't believe that God's blood was sufficient enough to cover these sins, even if not confessed near the end of one's life. Christ's atonement is not enough for you.

 

[Brother Bob]

There is no exception clause with God. He forgives all sins. But you have an exception clause. Not only do you stop at that one sin. You go on to mention others. It is just cloaked in other words.

There is a thing called "Grace of God" that has been inserted in the believer that you fail to consider.

If a believer commits these sins God won't forgive them either, even though they already have been forgiven at the time of salvation. God forgives all our sins. But you don't beleive that. You don't believe that God's blood was sufficient enough to cover these sins, even if not confessed near the end of one's life. Christ's atonement is not enough for you.
__________________
DHK

Seems to me the sin would have to be committed before it can be forgiven.

You must be a Calvinist to believe that all future sins have already been forgiven??

 

[EdSutton]

If repent is to turn:

Jon 3:10¶And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.

You tell me Ed;????

I have also consistently said that "Repent" (OT - 'nacham', "To be eased", literally; and NT- 'metanoeO' - "change one's mind" usually, and 'metamellomai' - six times carrying the force or 'regret') are not the same as "turn" [OT - 'shuwb'; NT 'epistrephO' (turn or convert)] at all. The meaning of the words are different, and in the NT, in fact, the 'voices' used with the words, are different.

"Repent" and "believe" are in the 'active' voice, meaning one' 'believes/repents'. That is something one "does". And those are the words used regarding salvation. One can also 'regret' i.e. Judas, i.e. Paul regarding writing and saying some things in Corinthians. In fact, Paul said he did not regret. although he did at one time regret ( 'metamellomai" -repent) 'causing sorrow', but did not change his mind (metanoeO - repent) about that very thing, and was glad that the 'godly sorrow' had led to repentance (metanoia - a change of mind).

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret itI. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter. 12 Therefore, although I wrote to you, I did not do it for the sake of him who had done the wrong, nor for the sake of him who suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear to you. (II Cor. 7:8-12 - NKJV, my emphases)

Verse 10 more literally reads, "Godly sorrow brings a 'change of mind' unto an irrevocable (Gk. 'ametamiletos') salvation, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Salvation is never, ever "taken away", by anyone!! Just thought I'd inject his here.
"Turn" and "convert", are however, normally used in the 'passive' voice or occasionally, the 'passive' sense in the NT,anyway. Peter, already a saved individual, I believe, was told "when you are converted" (Lk. 12:32). Another place says "be turned", and a third says 'one converts him' or "turns him back" (NKJV). When the active sense is used concerning salvation, it is in the sense of 'turn to the Lord', ("...how you turned to God from idols") not turn away from somethng else, such as sin. Here the sense is the same as repent/believe, or "What must I do to be saved?" We already know that answer, I believe.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I have no argument with that Ed;
I still believe that "turn" and "change your mind" could be the same.

If I started to town but changed my mind I would "turn" and come back.

But, it is not enough for us to quibble about. I think for once we almost agree.

 

[DHK]

You must be a Calvinist to believe that all future sins have already been forgiven??

No, just a Bible believer.

Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

God promised never to remember my sins again. They were all forgiven at the cross--past, present and future. How far is the east from the west, Bob?

 

[Brother Bob]

God promised never to remember my sins again. They were all forgiven at the cross--past, present and future. How far is the east from the west, Bob?__________________
DHK

Yes, he forgive you but you are the one who says regardless you just keep on sinning or at least some do.

Then according to your belief, you believe all those who are saved are already picked and had their sin forgiven and those who are lost don't even have a chance because their sins were not forgiven. Unless you believe in Universilism?

Also, I don't think you have raised from the grave as of yet, but the price was paid at the cross and His resurrection. How come you already have not been resurrected from the grave and changed?

You theology don't make sense.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I agree all their past sins were forgiven but if the future sins also were forgiven, in the first place the saved would already have to be picked, so join the Calvinist. Also, there would be no need for an advocate for our sins if they were already forgiven and never to be remembered. Did God lie about the situation or did He forgive their sins and shed enough blood for all mankind, even those who are yet to come so that their sins could be forgiven also.

If you stick to your belief, then you are a Calvinist. Are you a Calvinist?
I don't even think the Calvinist believe that our sins are forgiven until after we commit them. I could be wrong, maybe reformedbeliever or Jauthor will tell us or Pinoy, or any Cal.

 

[DHK]

Yes, he forgive you but you are the one who says regardless you just keep on sinning or at least some do.

I never said that. I said it is possible for a Christian to sin, as we all sin. And it is possible for a Christian to go to heaven with unconfessed sin, because all his sin: past, present and future is under the blood. His standing before God is perfectly righteous and holy. The blood of Christ made him that way. Otherwise there is no possible way into heaven.

Then according to your belief, you believe all those who are saved are already picked and had their sin forgiven and those who are lost don't even have a chance because their sins were not forgiven. Unless you believe in Universilism?

I never said anything about: Calvinism, predestination, or universalism. What have you been reading? Those who are saved are those that have called on the name of the Lord, and have believed on Christ and what He has done for them. At the point of salvation Christ forgives their sins: all of them!
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

Also, I don't think you have raised from the grave as of yet, but the price was paid at the cross and His resurrection. How come you already have not been resurrected from the grave and changed?
You theology don't make sense.

"I don't think." I agree: you don't think.
And it is true that "your" theology doesn't make sense.
Now, where did I say anything about the resurrectioin, and what does that have to do with the gospel. The resurrection doesn't take place at the time of salvation. How many people have you seen raptured or resurrected at the time of their salvation? Are you making any sense here Bob?
All my sins were forgiven at salvation--past, present and future. That has nothing to do with the resurrection. As far as my standing before God is concerned I stand perfect, holy and righteous, clothed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. If it wasn't for his payment for my sin, I would never be able to enter into heaven. This is what Christ meant when he said: "Unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees you can in no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. What kind of righteousness do you have Bob, and how do you know? The righteousness that was given to me, the day that I was saved covered all my sins--past, present and future. God is so great.

I agree all their past sins were forgiven but if the future sins also were forgiven, in the first place the saved would already have to be picked, so join the Calvinist.

First, I am not a Calvinist. Secondly, I don't know where you get these warped assumptions from. My future sins are paid for just as much as my past sins. If they are not paid for there is no chance of me (or you) going to heaven. The logical conclusion here is that you are saying that the blood of Christ is not sufficient enough to pay for my future sins. That is blasphemy. Christ paid the penalty for all my sins, not just 60% of them or so. He bore the full burden of them, not just a partial burden of them. Your belief is turning into a religion of works where you have to pay the penalty of any future sin that you commit because has not atoned for your future sins. I consider that to be blasphemy. He either has atoned for them all, or atoned for none of them. You can't sit on the fence. Choose which one you believe.

Also, there would be no need for an advocate for our sins if they were already forgiven and never to be remembered. Did God lie about the situation or did He forgive their sins and shed enough blood for all mankind, even those who are yet to come so that their sins could be forgiven also.

BUT, if any Christian sin we (Christians) have an advocate with the Father..." The first epistle of John was written to believers. We cannot lose our salvation, and the context is not speaking of salvation. Salvation is not even in the picture in 1John 2:1,2. It is being in fellowship with God. That has nothing to do with salvation. Do you believe you can lose eternal life? I don't. If you could then eternal would not be eternal and Christ would be a liar.

If you stick to your belief, then you are a Calvinist. Are you a Calvinist?
I don't even think the Calvinist believe that our sins are forgiven until after we commit them. I could be wrong, maybe reformedbeliever or Jauthor will tell us or Pinoy, or any Cal.

No, I am not a Calvinist. I am a Biblicist. I know that all my sins are forgiven--even the future ones, and even the unconfessed ones. And if I were to die right now, even if there should be some unconfessed sin in my life, I know that I would go straight to heaven. It is Christ that has given me eternal life. And he gave it to me without any strings attached.

 

[Brother Bob]

BUT, if any Christian sin we (Christians) have an advocate with the Father..." The first epistle of John was written to believers. We cannot lose our salvation, and the context is not speaking of salvation. Salvation is not even in the picture in 1John 2:1,2. It is being in fellowship with God. That has nothing to do with salvation. Do you believe you can lose eternal life? I don't. If you could then eternal would not be eternal and Christ would be a liar.

This destroys everything you said about your sins past, present and future being forgiven, even unconfessed ones.


You are saying His blood cleansed you now when you were saved and not at the cross, which is it?

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Yes, he forgive you but you are the one who says regardless you just keep on sinning or at least some do.
I never said that. I said it is possible for a Christian to sin, as we all sin. And it is possible for a Christian to go to heaven with unconfessed sin, because all his sin: past, present and future is under the blood. His standing before God is perfectly righteous and holy. The blood of Christ made him that way. Otherwise there is no possible way into heaven.

I am not going to repeat what kind of sin you said you could be doing at the time of death and still go to Heaven. I doubt very seriously if you are in fellowship with God at that time and if not in fellowship with God you sure are not going to Heaven. IMO

If I understand you correctly, you are saying God saved some with the blood of Jesus, knowing they were going back to homosexuality, adultery, murder etc. I don't buy your theology at all. I am in awe that you could believe God would save a man knowing he would return to homosexualitiy?? God know all! What kind of bride do you think the Lord has anyway?

Don't you believe the Lord when He says "My Grace is suffecient to keep thee"? That is keep thee "in the way", not allow you to commit any sin you may desire to commit.

Why would you believe that the blood of our Lord would cover you while you committed homosexuality?

Please show me where the scripture says the Lord will cover your future sins of homosexuality?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Well, not those spoken of in Acts 11:18, as they had already repented (believed, the 'flip-side' of repented, so to speak), hence were saved. The rest did have to come to "repentance toward God" (change their mind or thinking about who Jesus was, and what God required) in order to be saved. I fully agree here and 'preach' the same thing as did the apostles and Jesus.

"Repent"? Absolutely!! One cannot be saved apart from faith/repentance toward God! That is absolutely Biblical!!

"Repent of/from your sins"?? Still not found in Scripture (and all the verses anyone can quote still do not say this), as any 'requirement' to be saved!!

What is the sole Biblical requirement (and answer to the direct question) is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved!"

Nothing more; nothing less!

Ed

What does repent mean if it doesn't mean repenting of your sins?

 

[DHK]

You are saying His blood cleansed you now when you were saved and not at the cross, which is it?

Down at the cross where my Savior died,
Down where for cleansing from sin I cried,
There to my heart was the blood applied;
Glory to His Name!

I am so wondrously saved from sin,
Jesus so sweetly abides within;
There at the cross where He took me in;
Glory to His Name!

Oh, precious fountain that saves from sin,
I am so glad I have entered in;
There Jesus saves me and keeps me clean;
Glory to His Name!

Come to this fountain so rich and sweet,
Cast thy poor soul at the Savior’s feet;
Plunge in today, and be made complete;
Glory to His Name!
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/d/o/downattc.htm

I came to the cross where Jesus saved me.
I preach the cross, that Jesus saves.
It was on the cross that Jesus died.
It was on the cross that his blood was shed.
It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all our sin.
Come to the cross and be saved today.

For the preaching of the cross is them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Are you so confused Bob?

 

[DHK]

Don't you believe the Lord when He says "My Grace is suffecient to keep thee"?

That is a perversion of God's Word. He didn't say that. He said to Paul:
"My grace is sufficient for thee." Why do you insert the words "to keep?"

 

[Brother Bob]

BUT, if any Christian sin we (Christians) have an advocate with the Father..." The first epistle of John was written to believers. We cannot lose our salvation, and the context is not speaking of salvation. Salvation is not even in the picture in 1John 2:1,2. It is being in fellowship with God. That has nothing to do with salvation. Do you believe you can lose eternal life? I don't. If you could then eternal would not be eternal and Christ would be a liar.

1. At least I don't say God said one thing and does another.
You say, He cast your sins never to be remember against you. Past, present and future sins.

2. Then you say, We have an advocate with God if we sin.

3. You speak both ways. You seem to be unstable. IMO

For the preaching of the cross is them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Are you so confused Bob?
__________________
DHK

I do use scriptures, I don't have to resort to a song. So, it looks like you run out of scripture and have to turn to fables. IMO

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Don't you believe the Lord when He says "My Grace is suffecient to keep thee"?
That is a perversion of God's Word. He didn't say that. He said to Paul:
"My grace is sufficient for thee." Why do you insert the words "to keep?"__________________
DHK

That is the meaning I get out of the scripture. You can do as you may, sing a song if you like.

There Jesus saves me and keeps me clean;
Glory to His Name!

You shouldn't post this DHK; IMO, you don't believe it, for you say the saved can do any sin the world can do and still sing with the angels.

 

[DHK]

BUT, if any Christian sin we (Christians) have an advocate with the Father..." The first epistle of John was written to believers. We cannot lose our salvation, and the context is not speaking of salvation. Salvation is not even in the picture in 1John 2:1,2. It is being in fellowship with God. That has nothing to do with salvation. Do you believe you can lose eternal life? I don't. If you could then eternal would not be eternal and Christ would be a liar.

1. At least I don't say God said one thing and does another.
You say, He cast your sins never to be remember against you. Past, present and future sins.

2. Then you say, We have an advocate with God if we sin.

3. You speak both ways. You seem to be unstable. IMO

If you read my quote that you posted above, you will see that I clearly said the context of Christ being our advocate is in the context of one being a Christian. It has nothing to do with being a Christian. Why are you so confused about this. Why do you confuse fellowship with salvation? I made myself clear. I seem to be repeating myself over and over again. :BangHead:

Likewise in the three statements you just posted.
Yes, my sins are forgiven--past present and future. Go to the post where I posted about half a dozen verses to support my statement. He has cast all my sins behind his back; never to rememeber them again. They are as far from him as is the east is from the west. How far is that Bob? They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. They are all forgiven--all of them. That pertains to our salvation--our standing before God

The fact that we have an advocate pertains to our fellowship, our walk with God, not having anything to do with our salvation.

That is not speaking out of both sides of my mouth. It is in harmony with Scriptures which teach both Salvation and sanctification. Don't you beleive in both of these doctrines

I do use scriptures, I don't have to resort to a song. So, it looks like you run out of scripture and have to turn to fables. IMO

I used a song to help you to understand the Scriptures. I keep repeating the same Scriptures, and you still don't understand. So I used a different approach. You are still confused.

 

[Brother Bob]

BUT, if any Christian sin we (Christians) have an advocate with the Father..." The first epistle of John was written to believers. We cannot lose our salvation, and the context is not speaking of salvation. Salvation is not even in the picture in 1John 2:1,2. It is being in fellowship with God. That has nothing to do with salvation. Do you believe you can lose eternal life? I don't. If you could then eternal would not be eternal and Christ would be a liar.

According to scripture there are many who think they have it but don't.

If you read my quote that you posted above, you will see that I clearly said the context of Christ being our advocate is in the context of one being a Christian. It has nothing to do with being a Christian. Why are you so confused about this. Why do you confuse fellowship with salvation? I made myself clear. I seem to be repeating myself over and over again. :BangHead:

Likewise in the three statements you just posted.
Yes, my sins are forgiven--past present and future. Go to the post where I posted about half a dozen verses to support my statement. He has cast all my sins behind his back; never to rememeber them again. They are as far from him as is the east is from the west. How far is that Bob? They are buried in the depths of the deepest sea. They are all forgiven--all of them. That pertains to our salvation--our standing before God

But you have stated in the past that sin is sin, there is no big one or little ones that all are the same with God. Now you say there is a sin that concerns Salvation and there is a sin that concerns fellowship with God. IMO, if you don't have fellowship with God, you are lost anyway but now you are saying there are 2 kinds of sin and before you strongly defended there was just "sin" with God. Now DHK: which is it, are there 2 kinds of sin, such as I said, a sin unto death and a sin which is not unto death. Are you agreeing with me now?

I used a song to help you to understand the Scriptures. I keep repeating the same Scriptures, and you still don't understand. So I used a different approach. You are still confused.
__________________
DHK
I

Yea, not I but the one who accuseth! IMO

 

[Amy.G]

DHK, are you still saying a Christian can commit any sin under the sun?

I guess that dude that just received the death penalty for the murder of Jessica Lunsford is possibly a born again Christian who is just out of fellowship with God. Unbelieveable.

 

[EdSutton]

What does repent mean if it doesn't mean repenting of your sins?

How many times does one have to say it before it sinks in? If repent means "repenting of your sins", as you apparently claim, which sins are you saying God repented of? Scripture says God or The LORD did repent or did not repent 30 times. (I can give a list of these verse, if one would like, but won't unless asked.)

One has to say that God sinned, to hold your view. And it is purely and simply heresy to accuse God of that, IMO.

I have posted at least six or more times, (in so many words but I cannot take the time to look through 3,200+ posts, and hundreds of threads to get the exact wording to get a direct quote) that repentance that regards salvation is a "a 'change of mind' toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21) , and is the a part of "the foundation of a 'change of mind' from dead works, and of faith toward God," (Heb. 6:1) in accordance with the only two things that repentance is said to entail regarding salvation. Those are direct Biblical quotes, BTW, with the inherent meaning of the Gk. 'metanoia' used where the word "repentance" is found from the NKJV. That is the only two times that a 'direction' for repentance is found in the NT, as well. The verb "metanoeO" means "to think afterward" (or differently) [Thayer] and is the word usually rendered as 'repent' in the KJV. It is an "objective" verb, hence has God as the object, as in Acts 20:21.
The KJV, unfortunately, also renders 'metamelomai' meaning "to care afterward (or differently)" [Thayer] as 'repent'. [That word is found only six times, BTW (Mt. 21:29, 32; 27:3; II Cor. 7:8 twice, and Heb. 7:21.)]
In other words, it means "to feel differently". This is a "reflexive" verb 'toward oneself' as the RV and ASV render it, with the force of "regret" which the NKJV renders correctly, as 'regret' or 'remorse'. It is what Judas did- 'was remorseful' i.e. 'regretted', but he did not 'repent', or 'change his mind about God and Christ', as the NKJV shows. That is the "worldly sorrow" that, as Paul says, brings death (II Cor. 7: 8-10), which certainly happened to Judas. Paul in this passage also uses 'regret' at least twice in v. 8.

The very post of mine you are quoting from (#181, in this thread) expresses this, as do posts # 176, 179, and 181. If those don't make it clear, nothing I can add will, except two or three things, perhaps. And one of those I have in these posts, previously.
#1&2 - When I speak of this 'change of mind, or way of thinking', I am not, in any way meaning (or accepting) the "straw man" of mere "intellectual assent" as some opponents of 'free grace' have put it. This is not a mere 'whim' or 'passing fancy' as we too often use this 'change of one's mind' in today's world. I detest these words, even, for they are nothing more than a subtle 'back-door' attempt to inject "works" into 'faith/believe'.

This change of mind goes far beyond that, in that it is complete and is part and parcel of believe, for salvation. One can change ones mind, or repent, but not have the object of this change as the Lord, hence not be saved. But one cannot "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", and be saved without this complete change of mind, or 'repenting'. That is simply not possible, and is the reason I have used the phrase "Repent is the 'flip-side' of believe/faith." Does that make it clearer?

#3 Only one thing in Scripture is ever said to lead or bring one to repentance (Godly sorrow is said to ' produce repentance', but that is slightly different.), or this change of mind. It is found in Romans 2:4

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Hope this makes it a bit clearer, from Scripture, whatever some preachers have said, notwithstanding.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Repent is the 'flip-side' of believe/faith

Explain Ed; how can it be the flip-side of faith. You mean its non-faith?

 

[EdSutton]

Explain Ed; how can it be the flip-side of faith. You mean its non-faith?

Of course I don't mean that, and you know that very well. Especially if you've actually read the posts.

[FONT=tahoma,arial]-&[/FONT] {annoyed}

Ed