Can you be saved and not know it?

[RichardJS]

Is the conscience "exact". I mean your conscience might "excuse" something that mine would not or visa versa?

I suppose the correct phrase is In foro conscientiæ which translates as "in their own sense". :laugh:

 

[EdSutton]

I would distinguish a fourfold justification:

1. In eternity in Christ (Objective)
2. At the cross in Christ (Objective)
3. In the conscience/ in my person (Subjective)
4. At the Judgement seat of Christ

I would then say that number 3 is subjective in that it happens to me in person whereas 1 and 2 happen before I was born and were done in Christ.

Clearer?

OK, I guess. Got any Scripture to back any of this up? Especially the conscience bit?

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

What if it was someone like Ed; who pulled a "blank"? What would he do? :laugh:

 

[EdSutton]

{annoyed} not you Ed; you tough.

Ya' think??

Actually, I am not that 'tough' but don't take things personally, usually.

Ed

 

[RichardJS]

OK, I guess. Got any Scripture to back any of this up?

Ed

I would begin to base it upon 1 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," as well as Romans 4:25 "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. "

The best explanation of it is found in Gill's The Doctrine of Justification, by the Righteousness of Christ, Stated and Maintained. in section 5 which begins "To enquire into the date of justification".

It is pretty standard stuff held by a number of Puritans (Thomas Goodwin, Herman Witsius, William Twisse).

 

[EdSutton]

What if it was someone like Ed; who pulled a "blank"? What would he do? :laugh:

Mind explaining that?

Any of my "blanks" I post on the BB are double posts I remove, since the .org. won't let me completely delete and remove the post.

Ed

 

[pinoybaptist]

Could it be he is of the devil?

I am shocked to learn the "elect" could be capable of such things? So the "elect" can rape little girls and bury them alive?

I didn't say he was one of the elect, did I ?
Neither am I saying he isn't, though.
And the reason for that is because I don't know.
And the reason I won't say he is of the elect is because if he is then God has His own time for Him, if he is not, then he is damned.
I won't say anyone is of the devil based on his actions.
Jesus Christ has that power, because He is God, knows those that are His, and knows the heart of all men. We don't.
At least, I know I don't.

 

[Brother Bob]

see..............:thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

I didn't say he was one of the elect, did I ?
Neither am I saying he isn't, though.
And the reason for that is because I don't know.
And the reason I won't say he is of the elect is because if he is then God has His own time for Him, if he is not, then he is damned.
I won't say anyone is of the devil based on his actions.
Jesus Christ has that power, because He is God, knows those that are His, and knows the heart of all men. We don't.
At least, I know I don't.

Mat 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

You made excuses for the man and I just don't think you should of. Just my feeling on the subject. I for one do not believe a child of God can do such things. I believe God would take his life before letting him commit such an act. Just me though.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Mat 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

You made excuses for the man and I just don't think you should of. Just my feeling on the subject. I for one do not believe a child of God can do such things. I believe God would take his life before letting him commit such an act. Just me though.

Okay, I respect that.

And I wasn't really making excuses for the guy. Just trying to think the way a liberal lawyer trying to get him unhooked woulda thought. A killer is a killer, a rapist is a rapist, and I don't care what kinda childhood he had, or if he was sexually or physically abused, or if he fell into the wrong crowd.

Far as I am concerned, fry them.:BangHead:

 

[Brother Bob]

Okay, I respect that.

And I wasn't really making excuses for the guy. Just trying to think the way a liberal lawyer trying to get him unhooked woulda thought. A killer is a killer, a rapist is a rapist, and I don't care what kinda childhood he had, or if he was sexually or physically abused, or if he fell into the wrong crowd.

Far as I am concerned, fry them.:BangHead:

And I respect that. I knew you was a good man all along.

 

[DHK]

Just my feeling on the subject.

I don't run my life by my feelings, but by the Word of God. My feelngs are too subjective.

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't run my life by my feelings, but by the Word of God. My feelngs are too subjective.__________________
DHK

Somehow I have a hard time accepting that.

 

[DHK]

He might be speaking to Israel but He is talking about how He will deliver them.

Strange you used Jer. and when I use Ezk. it is wrong. :laugh: :laugh:

Rom 2:29But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

Heb. 3:
8: Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10: Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11: So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

You better take heed to the word of God!

What is your point here Bob?
First you take Scripture out of context--a promise directed to the nation of Israel, a prophecy that will be fulfilled at the Coming of Christ when the Millennial Kingdom begins. That has nothing to do with the condition of man's heart now, nor with the timeless truth of Jeremiah 17:9 which describes the condition of man's heart now
Keep things in their context.

It is God that judges the heart; not man.
It is God who will sit on the judgement seat of Christ; not Bro.Bob.
It is God who will sit ont Great White Throne; not Bro.Bob.
It is God who judges! Not man!
Only God knows the hearts of men. Those that declare, whether directly or indirectly, that they know the heart of man, are putting themselves in the position of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

I see you had nothing to say about you using Jer. You always use the OT, but when someone elses uses it correctly, you say "that was to Israel". Well, Israel and we are of the same tree now. We were grafted in.
I do keep it in context, it is you who goes back and forth and I really don't think you know where you are at.

Mat 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
I don't believe the Mill is yet to come. Jesus never mentioned it at all.

It is God that judges the heart; not man. We can judge the fruit though.
It is God who will sit on the judgement seat of Christ; not Bro.Bob. Don't want to.
It is God who will sit ont Great White Throne; not Bro.Bob. Don't want to do that either.
It is God who judges! Not man! Bible says to judge them which are within, or don't you believe scripture. Also, we know the fruit of those we meet and get to know.
Only God knows the hearts of men. Those that declare, whether directly or indirectly, that they know the heart of man, are putting themselves in the position of God. Beware of false witnesses who say lo here is Christ and there is Christ. We must know something. Maybe you don't though. IMO

Now remember context DHK;

 

[EdSutton]

I see you had nothing to say about you using Jer. You always use the OT, but when someone elses uses it correctly, you say "that was to Israel". Well, Israel and we are of the same tree now. We were grafted in.
I do keep it in context, it is you who goes back and forth and I really don't think you know where you are at.

Mat 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
I don't believe the Mill is yet to come. Jesus never mentioned it at all.


Now remember context DHK;

Where does the Bible say we were grafted in to any tree? Just wonderin'.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Where does the Bible say we were grafted in to any tree? Just wonderin'.

Ed

13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15: For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18: Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[DHK]

I don't believe the Mill is yet to come. Jesus never mentioned it at all.

In Rev.20:1-7, the word "thousand" or "millenia" is mentioned no less than six times. Millenia is where Millennium comes from. And you say it is not mentioned? In another thread you claim that Christ wrote all the Scriptures. So if that be true Christ mentioned it here six times.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I know Ed will get to this too, but, the rich young ruler wasn't saved because he continued to trust in his riches.

Zaccheus was saved because he trusted and received Christ as His saviour and did not hold his riches in higher esteem than God.

Good answer. So they had to "do something" in order to be saved just as we all do.

 

[Brother Bob]

In Rev.20:1-7, the word "thousand" or "millenia" is mentioned no less than six times. Millenia is where Millennium comes from. And you say it is not mentioned? In another thread you claim that Christ wrote all the Scriptures. So if that be true Christ mentioned it here six times.__________________
DHK

I should of said while He was here on Earth. If the Mill was to come in the end of time I think Jesus would of told us. He spoke of a quick work He will do then. The hour is coming when ALL in the grave shall come forth, unto them that have done good the resurrection of life and unto them that have done evil, the resurrection of damnation. No mention at all of a Mill.

Rev.
After the fact!