Can you be saved and not know it?

[Salamander]

Would you explain how anyone could know they are one of His sheep, but yet they don't believe it? That theology will top all that has ever crossed the paths of mankind.

Here is a man that knows he is "saved" but he don't "believe" it.

I don't just believe it anymore. Since talking with you, I know I am saved even more than before.

I know I am saved because Jesus knows me and knows I am saved, why don't you know you're saved?

 

[Brother Bob]

I never did say I didn't know it.

I know I am saved because Jesus knows me and knows I am saved

So, how do you know that Jesus knows you are saved, do you believe Jesus knows you are saved?

 

[Salamander]

I never did say I didn't know it.


So, how do you know that Jesus knows you are saved, do you believe Jesus knows you are saved?

I know I have the Word of God, why is it you don't believe your Bible?

The Word of God declares what I know.

The Lord says He knows I'm saved, you attempt to overthrow others faith. You will answer for that at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or at the Great White Throne, but you will answer for it and pay dearly.

I'm sorry, but it appears you have definite issues with articulation: from both perspectives.

 

[Brother Bob]

I know I have the Word of God, why is it you don't believe your Bible?

The Word of God declares what I know.

The Lord says He knows I'm saved, you attempt to overthrow others faith. You will answer for that at either the Judgment Seat of Christ or at the Great White Throne, but you will answer for it and pay dearly.

I'm sorry, but it appears you have definite issues with articulation: from both perspectives.

What a foolish statement. IMO
It just amazes me that you know but don't believe you know, amazing.

 

[saturneptune]

What a foolish statement. IMO
It just amazes me that you know but don't believe you know, amazing.

Brother Bob,
Where do you get these people from to debate with? This sounds like I voted for the war before I voted against it. You know what it reminds me of, when I was growing up, the little boy sitting with a flower pulling off the petals and saying she loves me she loves me not. This guy is doing the same thing saying He saved me, He saved me not.

Full moon soon I hear.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, today first day of spring I think.

 

[Salamander]

What a foolish statement. IMO
It just amazes me that you know but don't believe you know, amazing.

2Ti 1:12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.2Ti 1:13¶Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.2Ti 1:14That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

If you'll notice, it is no longer that I just believe, but in Whom I have believed, so this one thing I know.

I know I am saved. i don't just believe it, I KNOW it.

Why don't you know you're saved is the question?

You don't believe God?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

First, I called no one a heretic, and I do not as a rule, and to my knowledge, never have on the BB, unless I might have used the term in a humerous vein. The term "heretic" (heretick - KJV) is a Biblical term, and is used in the KJV. The related Greek words `αιρεω, `αιρετιζω, `αιρεσις, and `αιρετικος are used a few times in Scripture, hence are Biblical, viable, and permissible, I would say. Maybe I should use the terms more than I do, actually. I do admit to having used the term "heresy" as regards some specific and clearly un-Biblical teaching or teachings in threads (and I make no apology for doing so), but never accused any person of being a heretic, as far as I know. One can, without thinking something through (or without bothering to check out what Scripture actually says), put forth or repeat some heresy, unintentionally I would say, and that is usually the attitude I try and take.

Secondly, I do not "embrace Open Theism" in any way, have never done so and given no indications of any such on this board. And I did not and have not, ascribed either of the NT words "metanoeO" or "metanoia" to God, at any time, FTR. At best, any who say that are mistaken; at worst, - well you can figure that out, I'd say, but I let another be the judge of that. In fact, I suggest that any who accuse me of such might be well suited in studying some of these sites, which are somewhat more informative and correct than Wikipedia, for example, which does not produce an accurate view of so-called "openness theology". a.k.a. "Open Theism", IMO.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/open-theism.htm
http://www.carm.org/open.htm
http://www.challies.com/archives/001109.php
http://www.founders.org/FJ46/article2_fr.html
http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/theism.fbw

One site advocating this 'theology' is

http://www.opentheism.info/

I assure you that I reject this, and am in no way, any particular fan of John Sanders, Clark Pinnock, or Gregory Boyd, to name but three who advocate this, and in fact, consider it almost a cousin of the so-called New Perspective on Paul or "N.P.P." (which I also reject most of the tenets of), led by E. P. Sanders, James D. G. Dunn, and N. T. Wright, to name its three most noted advocates. But that is another thread.

Thirdly, the verse I quoted from in Acts give specific 'direction' of the 'repentance'. The passage itself says "repentance toward God", not repentance "from" or "of" anything.

Fourthly, I did not quote, nor even check from, 'Strong's'. So what he may have to say is not applicable to my post. I merely gave the meaning of the word, and cited from Thayer and Wigram, where I cited. The theological "application" may or may not be correct, as you cited from Strong. I do not think that it is. Even if I did think that, it is not 'inherent' in the meaning of either "metanoeO" or "metanoia", which was what I said, previously. One cannot get this from a word whose meaning is from the compound word with the particulate meanings of "after" and "mind"., But one does get the meaning of "to think afterward", or "to think differently" from the verb form.

Lastly, I would like to comment on the context of the verse you cited, which is one you have cited frequently, without context. The passage is: Jesus, here is speaking to the mindset, that these 'bad things' occurred because these were in some way, some great sinners, hence they died . That is precisely why he worded the questions as "Do you suppose..." and "do you think...". And He said in both instances, "I tell you no". In other words it was not because of some (unknown) great sins, here. And neither was it because of some lack of self-reformation, either. 'But unless you change your thinking about this, [and as to who I AM, and what is going on' (Go back and read chapter 12.)] 'you are going to perish in this same way, as they did. In fact he has specifically separated 'repent' from 'sin' in this passage. And I believe I'll agree with Him, not some so-called, self-styled, "tare plucker", wannabe theologian, no matter whom he or she may be, or from whatever background.

My post you partially (or fully, I don't remember which) quoted from stands.

Regardless of any beams.

Ed

So you don't support Strong's. Is that supposed to make me tremble with your theological powers? As far as never calling anyone a heretic you're splitting hairs.

"One has to say that God sinned, to hold your view. And it is purely and simply heresy to accuse God of that, IMO."

So, in other words I can say that in order holding your view is "purely and simply heresy." But hey, I've never called YOU a heretic have I?

 

[Salamander]

Brother Bob,
Where do you get these people from to debate with? This sounds like I voted for the war before I voted against it. You know what it reminds me of, when I was growing up, the little boy sitting with a flower pulling of the petals and saying she loves me she loves me not. This guy is doing the same thing saying He saved me, He saved me not.

Full moon soon I hear.

I suppose they'll be coming for the both of you soon.

I know what I believe. Bob thinks he knows what I believe.

I know what I know. Bob and you think I only believe I know.

The Lord knows that I know I am saved.

Do I believe I AM SAVED? I know I am saved. The Bible teaches all who believe they can know they are saved.

I am not arguing with Bob or you. I am concurring with the Lord. Yall are arguing with the knowledge of the Lord.

But what else could anyone expect [Removed Personal Attack]?

The conversation just came to a sudden halt. I thought I was dealing with the unlearned, but I now KNOW I have been confronting apostacy all along.

Good day it will be when you two can also KNOW you're saved and not just believe you are without any real proof.

I rest my case solely upon the Holy Ghost and the Inspired, Inerrant, Infallible, Word of God.

Forgive me, Lord, for wasting redeemable time.

 

[Christlifter]

Oh Brother

I have read the enitirety of this post, and it seems to be a big fat waste of time.

:jesus: Saves!:laugh::thumbs: You would know it. If you doubt it, check the unconfessed sin or false doctrine in your life, or if you have been shown to be lost by God, to be saved for real. THE END.

Knowing and believing are two different things. It's the difference between a bare mental assent to facts (about Christ), and actual trust (in Christ). Look up in the Strongs, the difference in verses between knowing and believing. The difference between the two, is the saved person is believing in the Gospel, and Trusting Christ follows if the individual sinner was convicted by the Holy Spirit that they were a lost sinner, on the way to Hell. (whether it takes 30 seconds or 30 years),That is Repentance and Faith. Afterwards the Holy Spirit indwells the heart of that individual, and they no longer practice the sinful lifestyle they did before. That doesn't mean they are sinless but they "sin-less", than they used too, as a general rule.

If nothing happened at all, or minimal "change", then all that is there is a "dead" or inactive "faith". You have to be lost, before you can get saved. The Book of John says the Holy Spirit convicts all sinners in some degree of sin and God's reality, in their conscience, and by the Creation. If they say no to that, well, then, that's their choice. If they choose to hold onto a "sinners prayer", false supernatural expereince, baptims or "good works" for proof and/or evidence, from when they were little (or big) even though God is convicting them, well, that is too.
(Sorry Brother Bob Im not a predestinationist!)

I won't be back!

:BangHead: <-----the point of this thread.

 

[saturneptune]

:BangHead: <-----the point of this thread.

You and the other person are doing nothing but playing word games. It has nothing to do with the Gospel, salvation, or faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

[Removed Quoted Personal Attack]
Back to the name calling, but what can you expect from a knowing Christian who does not believe he knows.

You have to "believe" in Christ to be saved, but Salamander knows but does not believe, I think that is what he said. IMO

As for me and my house, "we believe" and we will serve the Lord our Savour.

Salamander; I know what I believe. Bob thinks he knows what I believe.

Now that is a work of art. What I been trying to get him to say all along.

 

[EdSutton]

What if you completely deny your faith Ed.?

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Jo. 6:35-40 - NKJV)

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[b] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. (Jo. 10:25-29 - NKJV)

3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“ That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”[a]

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? (Rom. 3:3-6 - NKJV)

7 Consider what I say, and may[b] the Lord give you understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.” (II Tim. 2:7-19 - NKJV)

"Seems clear enough to me, Boss!" Language Cop

"Thanks, LC."

In Jo. 6:37 Jesus said He wouldn't kick 'em out.

In Jo. 6:39 He said He wouldn't lose anything.

In Jo. 6:40, he said that all who see the Son have everlasting life, and He will raise him up at the 'last day'.

In Jo. 10:28 He says they shall never perish, the strongest negative, in Greek, BTW, with the force of "never, no never perish." He also says not "anyone" should snatch them from His hand.

In Jo. 10:29, He says no one can snatch them from His Father's hand.

In Ro. 3:3, Paul says our unbelief does not 'trump' God's faithfulness.

In II Tim. 2:11, Paul says that we who died with Him shall live with Him.

In verse 12a says if we endure, we shall reign with Him. (Note it does not say, if we don't endure, we won't be saved., but suggests we may not 'reign' if we don't endure.)

Verse 12b has the definite warning, that He will deny us, if we deny Him. Again, what it does not say is that one who 'denies' Him is not saved to begin with.

And in fact, in verse 13, the statement is made that even if we are faithless, He remains faithful, because he cannot deny Himself. His immutability is what this is based on, not ours, because we are not immutable.

Just as the LORD God made the covenant with Abraham alone, and not with Abraham, for He had caused Abraham to be asleep when he covenanted with Himself, and "passed between the pieces", alone, signifying that the covenant would be based on His faithfulness, and His alone. (Gen. 15:17-18), and "because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself (Heb. 6:13), He does the same by us. His faithfulness is so great that -

24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who isholy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. (Heb. 7:24-28 - NKJV)

He is absolutely immutable, and that is where I rest, and that is why I know that I know because I believed, and not merely believe that I know I am saved, and eternally secure, just as I Jo. 5:9-13 tells us we can be.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which[b] He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life,[c] and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (NKJV)

:thumbsup:

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

:thumbsup:

Ed

Mat 10:33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[EdSutton]

So you don't support Strong's. Is that supposed to make me tremble with your theological powers? As far as never calling anyone a heretic you're splitting hairs.

"One has to say that God sinned, to hold your view. And it is purely and simply heresy to accuse God of that, IMO."

So, in other words I can say that in order holding your view is "purely and simply heresy." But hey, I've never called YOU a heretic have I?

I really prefer not to have to defend myself, but since I see some points that are clearly misleading, I shall go over this point by point. This might get the thread closed, but it will just have to be that way, if it occurs.

I never said anythng about whether or not I "support Strong's". In fact I have worn one completely out, to the point that it is literally falling apart, and am about to have to start on another. But I do not accept Strong's as infallible or inerrant, any more than I accept any Bible dictionary, Reference Bible (apart from the text, itself), theology, or any other Bible commentary, inspirational book or Bible reference work as inerrant. I merely did not cite it and do not agree with Him, in this point of question.

Next, I never claimed any "theological powers" in any form, whatsoever. But a nice ad hoc.

Next, if you feel I am "calling anyone a (sic) heretic", hence "splitting hairs", I apologize for the perception, even though it is something I did not actually say.

Next, as to my quote, please put it in the context. The question you originally asked was

What does repent mean if it doesn't mean repenting of your sins?

And since you have more than once contended that to repent does mean "to repent of your sins" (And I disagreed this interpretation is required by the words, and have mentioned several times that the phrase "repent of/from (your) sins" is never to be found in Scripture.), I responded with my own question, which I believe is a fair question. That question is and was, at least in essence" What sins are you saying God either repented of or did not repent of, since God is said to have repented or not repented at least 29 times in the OT, and once in the NT? That question still stands unanswered, BTW, and FTR, by either you or anyone else who hold that position. And I did make , and fully admit i made the statement that " "One has to say that God sinned, to hold your view. And it is purely and simply heresy to accuse God of that, IMO." " I added that I was not willing to make the charge that God actually "repented of sin" against an Holy God, by any stretch. Are you? What would you call that charge? I, again fully admit, I suggested that that is heresy, to even suggest that. Would you agree to that? Just wonderin'!

If you believe that the view(s) I hold and present here is/are heresy, I guess you can make that charge, if you wish. I would like to see some Scripture, that makes the statements, though. Is that a fair request?

No, you (nor anyone else on the BB, if my memory serves) have not 'called me an heretic', as best as I can remember. However, some of those who hold some similar positions of so-called "free grace", have been so designated, albeit not by you, I do not think.

Wyclif, Huss, Tyndale, Jeanne d' Arc, Staupitz, Luther, Melanchthon, Calvin, Servetus, Arminius, the 'Pilgrims', the Waldenses, and Baptists, in general, to name a few, have been called 'heretics' over the centuries. So I guess if I were called an heretic, I'd be in some fairly good company.

But please, just don't group me with Marcion, the Heretic, and/or Julian, the Apostate! :laugh:

Ed

 

[Salamander]

[Removed Discussion of Quoted Personal Attack]

You have to "believe" in Christ to be saved, but Salamander knows but does not believe, I think that is what he said. IMO

This isn't the first time you've concocted the very same lie.

First a man believes unto righteousness, then with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. A man must first know what he confesses else he is not sure of what he says, but only believes it.

As for me and my house, "we believe" and we will serve the Lord our Savour.

Jesus very well may be your "savour" but He is my Saviour!

Now that is a work of art. What I been trying to get him to say all along.

I have repeatedly said the same thing. I'm glad you're happy, now, get back in your hole.

 

[Salamander]

BTW, Bob, do you believe I Peter 1:5 or do you know it's true?

 

[EdSutton]

BTW, Bob, do you believe I Peter 1:5 or do you know it's true?

Heh! Heh!

ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Jesus very well may be your "savour" but He is my Saviour!

So, are you British?

I have repeatedly said the same thing. I'm glad you're happy, now, get back in your hole.

I KNOW, but I don't believe, so how would you know what you said. Are you sure you Know, being you don't believe you know?

1 Peter 1:
5: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21: Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

I have faith, you bypass it or at least you think you do, but do you know whether you do, or is that what you believe, or don't you believe, you know you have faith.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Salamander
BTW, Bob, do you believe I Peter 1:5 or do you know it's true?
Heh! Heh!

ed

Ed; Heh! Heh! He is Delirious!