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Featured Can you really BLAME them?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Mar 21, 2012.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Abandon all reason, ye who interact with Scandal :type:. Logic shall not avail you.
     
    #81 Aaron, Mar 27, 2012
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps its just better to abandon the board altogether.
     
    #82 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 27, 2012
  3. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    AGEDMAN:

    Everyone accepts this, it is also not germaine to the topic discussed.

    .

    No, accually, the topic is really about God's sense of justice, not his sovereignty. But regurgitation of Calvinistic platitudes are always entertaining.
    What the topic is refering to is more the part about ..."but whom he will he hardeneth" but quoting the Sriptures randomly is always fun... how about... "the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood" <-----Arminianism proven.

    Random restatement of....

    addressed by premise no.1:
    1. God punished them for the sin of Adam by making them be born totally unable to repent even when invited by God to do so.

    factors YOU have no control over...God controls ALL of them.. this is where the analogy breaks down. My father (a defense attorney) always encouraged me, if need be, to waive the right to jury trial and take the 3 judge panel. I agree with him.
     
    #83 HeirofSalvation, Mar 27, 2012
  4. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Again, throughout this thread, we see Calvinists using their "talking points" and avoiding the real questions.

    Not unlike Democrats.

    We are all aware of the talking points of Calvinism, where are the real anawers?

    John

    PS...dont bother to say that the real answers are in the Bible, because my Bible tells me that Calvinism is a man-made, false doctrine.
     
    #84 seekingthetruth, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2012
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    If they are His sheep from the world's foundation, then it seems like they are already born alive(quickened means to be made alive).
     
    #85 convicted1, Mar 27, 2012
  6. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    Nice plagiarism of the (non-calvinist) Dante Alighieri's work
     
    #86 HeirofSalvation, Mar 27, 2012
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    [QUOTEJohn

    PS...dont bother to say that the real answers are in the Bible, because my Bible tells me that Calvinism is a man-made, false doctrine. ][/QUOTE]

    Then throw that bible out, and find one that will reveal the truths known as calvinism to you.....no matter which bible you look in.....if you come set to rebel...telling God what you will and will not believe...you will ot come to truth.:wavey:
     
    #87 Iconoclast, Mar 27, 2012
  8. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    How about this.... The OP poses a legitimate set of propositions... it is either valid and sound, OR it is valid, but not sound, OR it is neither valid nor sound.... Would any Calvinist like to challenge either:

    1.) It's form.....suggesting it is not valid or.....
    2.) Any of it's premises....suggesting it is not sound

    Unless and until any Calvinist can do that, Skan's argument stands and.....presumably....his conclusion does as well

    Just falsify ONE premise and then you have an argument... until then... you are checked.... and mated...sorry...your problem.

    If the Calvinist explanation of Soteriology is correct... you SHOULD be able to do this... if you can't...............

    REPENT and accept what the BIBLE actually teaches..namely... That we are Saved by GRACE Repent Calvinist and believe the doctrine of GRACE.

    (yes I am in fact refusing to cede the notion that determinists own that doctrine)
     
    #88 HeirofSalvation, Mar 27, 2012
  9. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    I thought I believed in Grace until a Calvinist showed me from the Scriptures that Grace was the fourth member of the Godhead.... silly me.
     
    #89 HeirofSalvation, Mar 27, 2012
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Right, because it makes MUCH more logical sense to teach that God makes a genuine appeal to his enemies without actually granting them the ability to willingly respond. Sure, keep telling yourself that. :laugh:
     
    #90 Skandelon, Mar 27, 2012
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Interesting. Of course, if a Calvinist wants to refute either his work is cut out for him (it is already done).

    Consider Spurgeon:

    “When a Calvinist says that all things happen according to the predestination of God, he speaks the truth, and I am willing to be called a Calvinist. But when an Arminian says that when a man sins, the sin is his own, and that if he continues in sin, and perishes, his eternal damnation will lie entirely at his own door, I believe that he speaks the truth, though I am not willing to be called an Arminian. The fact is, there is some truth in both these systems of theology.”

    “Why does God hate any man? I defy anyone to give any answer but this, because that man deserves it; no reply but that can ever be true.”

    “Oh, sinners, if ye perish, on your own head must be your doom. Conscience tells you this, and the Word of God confirms it…If you perish you perish by suicide. You are your own destroyers, because you reject Christ, because you despise the birthright and sell it for that miserable mess of pottage—the pleasures of the world... But if you are saved, it cannot be by your merits, it must be by grace—free, sovereign grace. The gospel is preached to you; it is this: ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved’.”

    Consider Calvin:

    “For although there is nothing in the world deserving of God’s favor, he nevertheless shows he is favorable to the whole world when he calls all without exception to the faith of Christ, which is indeed an entry into life.”

    Another illustration of Calvin’s view is to be found in the explanation of Matthew 26:28: “…This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Calvin says: “Under the name of many he designates not a part of the world only, but the whole human race.”
     
    #91 JonC, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2012
  12. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    This is SOARING rhetoric. Spurgeon was indeed GIFTED!! He also never answered the question in simple intelligible terms. I have..and have also read.. just about every collected work Spurgeon has... can you point out where he actually adresses the question posed by Skan?? Other than by saying ..."Forget that God Forced man to be made this way...he still remains inculpable....blah blah blah.." An argument from authority (another informal logic fallacy) won't cut it...
    Try again...falsify the Premise:thumbs:
     
    #92 HeirofSalvation, Mar 27, 2012
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Your fallacy is that you are seeking someone to answer the question to your satisfaction. John Calvin simply accepted many of those issues. Luther ascribed it to “mystery,” even going so far as stating that it was not proper to systemize the mind of God. Spurgeon, as you have less than adequately stated, did much the same – he described them as seemingly parallel lines (J.I. Packer used “antinomy”). As far as “falsifying the premise,” you actually can’t get better than that. They’re false because they’re not true . :)


    I’ll offer a rebuttal to 2&3 (although #2 may be questionable because some would contend that "loving salvificially" equates to saving rather than merely offering salvation).

    John 3:16 – for God so loved the world. John Calvin pointed out that the word κόσμος refers to all of mankind – all humans indiscriminately. The non-elect are guilty because Christ died for all men, to include the non-elect. “God used a general term, both to invite indiscriminately all to share in life and to cut off every excuse form unbelievers”. The significance to the author of John using the term ‘world’ is that, "although there is nothing in the world deserving of God’s favor, he nevertheless shows he is favorable to the whole would when he calls all without exception to the faith of Christ.” (Calvin, John 1-10).

    Another illustration of Calvin’s view is to be found in the explanation of Matthew 26:28: “…This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Calvin says: “Under the name of many he designates not a part of the world only, but the whole human race.”

    2 and 3 are false Scripturally and are also denied by Calvinistic Soteriology (depending on, of course, the Calvinist). And of course, many don't consider Calvin a Calvinist.

    The questions are flawed because what is presented as the “facts of the matter” lack defining and are not really the facts of the matter (but I think you know that). The premise in general does not reflect Calvinistic Soteriology nor does it reflect Scripture.
     
    #93 JonC, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2012
  14. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    Because God by his foreknowledge knew that after the fall of Adam that there would be none that would seek after him,Ps 53:2, so He choose his elect before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, Christ came to earth to do his Father's will and that was to redeem his elect back to him which Christ accomplished on the cross. God knowing that all mankind would be born into this world without any righteousness quickened his elect to a spiritual life so they would love, honour, and praise Him. God's sheep has been his elect when He first choose them, but because of their natural state of unrighteousness had to be purified by His quickening power.Eph 2:1-5.
     
    #94 Forest, Mar 27, 2012
  15. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    If God calls all mankind, then all mankind will also be justified, so therefore I do not believe that he calls all mankind, but only his elect. Rom 8:30, whom he called them he also justified.
     
    #95 Forest, Mar 27, 2012
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Your statement that “If God calls all mankind, then all mankind will also be justified” is a great leap. But we differ in that I do believe in a general call and an effectual call (God calls and His sheep hear His voice). We won’t agree on this point, but I understand your position regarding the effectual call. It’s what is generally reflected in strict Calvinism or Primitive Baptist belief (although you may be neither). My understanding is closer to Amyraldianism so I do believe that all had an opportunity to believe (although perhaps not the same opportunity).

    I don’t understand your statement regarding the “quickening” of the elect. Since this “quickening power” is what “purifies” the elect, who were “quickened” so that they can accept Christ (“they are already quickened”), where exactly does Christ fit into the picture?

    It seems that you are saying the elect are born “spiritually alive (quickened),” but somehow something is lacking so Christ came and they follow because they are “spiritually alive.” But this is not biblical, so I am assuming that I am not understanding you correctly (please understand that I’m not saying that this is your belief – just asking for clarification).
     
    #96 JonC, Mar 27, 2012
  17. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    I believe the scriptures to teach that the reason that God choose an elect people before the foundation of the world is that by his foreknowledge he knew, because of the fall of Adam, that no one would seek to follow him, Ps 53:2. Because all mankind, including the elect, are born into this world without any righteousness God has to quicken them to a new life by giving them one heart, and putting a new spirit within them, and will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh (absorbent heart) Eze 11:19. Christ came to this earth to do His Father's will, and that will was for him to die for the sins of those that his Father gave him (the elect) and give them eternal life and Christ said that he would raise them all up at the last day without the loss of one. John 6:37-41. John 17:2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
     
    #97 Forest, Mar 27, 2012
  18. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    John 6:
    43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

    52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

    53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    John 14:24
    Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    Matthew 11:29
    Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

    Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
    6 in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

    7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the LORD and shun evil.


    To follow a crowd does not mean you were drawn by the Father.
     
    #98 psalms109:31, Mar 28, 2012
  19. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Even though you still havent answered the question of why God chose you and gave not even a chance to others, I do appreciate your post here.

    Rarely does a Calvininst take the time to explain to us "ignorant" Christians" why they believe as they do.

    Even though I do disagree with you, I do respect your beliefs.

    John
     
    #99 seekingthetruth, Mar 28, 2012
  20. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    The elect are the collective group of Christians we call the Church.

    If you apply the word 'elect' or "chosen" to yourself by virtue of presdination then you dont understand the Bible at all.

    If you repent and are saved then you are one of the elect.

    John
     
    #100 seekingthetruth, Mar 28, 2012
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