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Featured Carry your cross, follow Jesus, die to self -- for eternal life

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Jan 6, 2017.

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  1. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    For the umpteenth time, Paul is not giving a "choice"...he is explaining the New Creation in Christ...New realities for a believer...

    You ARE NOW a slave to righeousness!

    22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.
     
    #21 JonShaff, Jan 7, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    My posting Article 3 of the Remonstrance was to correct your misunderstanding expressed in your quote.
    Now you know that is not what Arminians believe.
     
    #22 TCassidy, Jan 7, 2017
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    #23 utilyan, Jan 7, 2017
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I actually think he doesn't.
     
    #24 JonC, Jan 7, 2017
  5. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    These are rhetorical questions...He is addressing the opposition, probably Judaizers who don't believe justification is by grace through faith alone.

    Paul is addressing someone who'd be like, "OK, suuuuure! So now what, do we go on sinning because of allllllll this grace???"

    And Paul is like, "um, no. You are no longer a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. God has given you new desires and the ability to live for His good pleasure."

    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
     
    #25 JonShaff, Jan 7, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I agree. He seems to have a pattern of not knowing anything about what he is arguing against.
     
    #26 TCassidy, Jan 7, 2017
  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Its funny, Your the closest one to give catholic doctrine. Maybe I can hear your doctrine and the catholic one next to each other. By catholic doctrine, quote me some catholic catechism not a hearsay he said she said.
     
    #27 utilyan, Jan 7, 2017
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Have you stopped sinning? OR "OK, suuuuure! So now what, do we go on sinning because of allllllll this grace???"
     
    #28 utilyan, Jan 7, 2017
  9. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Unfortunately, you just do not understand Paul's method of writing to Christian churches.
    In this case, he is either:
    1) saying you are supposed to be a slave
    2) hinting tongue-in-cheek that they are
    3) both of the above (which I favor)

    Note 6:19 where he tells them: submit your members as slaves of righteousness,
    i.e. they are really NOT living as slaves!
     
    #29 Samuels, Jan 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    You are imposing your opinion into the text. He is contrasting what they did as LOST PEOPLE, UNREGENERATES
     
    #30 JonShaff, Jan 8, 2017
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves [as] servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


    If it was self-evident he wouldn't have questioned their knowledge. Even the immediate logic of what he is saying would not work with your theology. Because a person would be incapable of presenting themselves servants of one thing or another, since under your system only God chooses and initiates who his servant who then is ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED forever bound as obedient to righteousness.

    Even if "unregenerate" did something good not being born again you still bound him as servant of sin.


    You couldn't agree with Paul here. Its a simple formula given.

    Those who do good serve righteousness and those who sin serve evil. You wouldn't agree with Paul here. Because only those who a marked righteous are righteous rather then those who behave it.
     
    #31 utilyan, Jan 8, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NONE who ever got to heaven were able to stop sinning fully!
     
    #32 Yeshua1, Jan 10, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You are correct, as Contax would be contrasting saved now slaves to Christ, and lost slaves to sin/flesh!
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Jan 10, 2017
  14. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    The contrast is included, of course ... I can read.
    But, there's much more to it than that.
    Paul's normal method is:
    Warnings in the midst of many edifications/encouragements.
    But, you are blind to this.

    We always impose our opinions on the text, which come from the Holy Spirit.
    I prefer to call them revelations!
    IMO, you prefer your supposed revelations over mine.
    His #1 method of leading us into all truth is through the Scriptures
    ... via many large and small revelations.
    It's called following the Spirit, being led of the Spirit, etc.
     
    #34 Samuels, Jan 11, 2017
  15. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Many believe this nonsense!
    The NT is full of warnings against this very thing!

    All men are born into spiritual idiocy!
    Many born-again believers still have a certain amount of this.
    They just have NOT been led into even close to all spiritual Truth as of yet.
    MANY issues are available for holding them back:
    false teachers, false doctrines, false biases, etc.

    Satan is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
     
    #35 Samuels, Jan 11, 2017
  16. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Yes, Zach and Liz did NOT have the indwelling Spirit,
    but they were totally righteous, etc. before God (Luke 1).
    They went to heaven w/o stopping from sinning.
    IMO, they were big-time repenters.
    And Jonny-boy will say I'm adding my opinion to the text.
     
    #36 Samuels, Jan 11, 2017
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Thy were NOT rightious in same sense as those now saved by Jesus are! and there are NO examples of ANY except Jesus ever stop sinning!
     
    #37 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  18. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Of course he has!
    But, they have other desires also ... to sin.

    Paul is saying,
    "May we continue sinning because God has given us His grace? NO!
    Now, choose the correct course of action, which is to be a slave of obedience!
    You guys have the ability to do it, now do it. And if you choose correctly,
    the result is righteousness and holiness and eternal life.
    The opposite course of action results in eternal death."

    Now, for my question ...
    Must the Holy Spirit reveal to the born-again believer what is meant in the NT,
    or can he/she figure it out ... just by reading the black/red on white?

    One answer is ... the Holy Spirit cannot really reveal spiritual Truth to one
    who has been deceived/blinded by false doctrines!
    People have to be OPEN to receive new spiritual Truths,
    i.e. corrections to previously-held doctrines.

    Oh wait, I know, Baptists have all spiritual Truth already
    ... nuttin' else to learn and understand.
     
    #38 Samuels, Jan 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are you talking about some new revelation, maybe some Charasmatic doctrines?
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Jan 11, 2017
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Scripture says someone who has not stopped sinning cannot enter heaven. I'm not making that up, that is in the bible. Revelations 21.

    Your saying you can still sin in heaven, provide scripture.
     
    #40 utilyan, Jan 12, 2017
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