CDC: 10 reports of Guillain-Barre Syndrome following H1N1 vaccine in last 2 months

[Johnv]

Of course not.

Yes it is. The facts don't support the claim.

Now see if you can come up with a response that means something and actually makes sense. :thumbs:

So, let's get this straight. It's your opinion that use of statisical control groups and statistical study groups are, as you said, "idiotic supposition"? How's about the fact that there's no evidence that shows GBS is caused by the H1N1a vaccine? I suppose that's an idiotic supposition as well.

 

[carpro]

Yes it is. The facts don't support the claim.

So, let's get this straight. It's your opinion that use of statisical control groups and statistical study groups are, as you said, "idiotic supposition"?

No.

Putting words in my mouth is not working out so well for you.

Why don't you try the truth for a change?

 

[Johnv]

Why don't you try the truth for a change?

The truth is there is no evidence for the claim that the H1N1a vaccine causes GBS.

 

[carpro]

The truth is there is no evidence for the claim that the H1N1a vaccine causes GBS.

That is a lie.


The truth is that there are people that contracted GBS after vaccination for H1N1 and no one at all can say with 100% assurance that the vaccine did not cause or contribute to it. And that is evidence.

 

[Johnv]

That is a lie.

It is a fact. There is no evidence for the claim that H1N1a vaccine causes GBS.

The truth is that there are people that contracted GBS after vaccination...

That's true. There are 4 cases of CBG occurring in persons after receiving the H1N1a vaccine.

... no one at all can say with 100% assurance that the vaccine did not cause or contribute to it. And that is evidence.

That contradicts what you said earlier. First you claim that there is evidence that H1N1a causes GBS. Now you claim no one can say that the vaccine did or didn't cause GBS.

And yes, you CAN say whether or not the vaccine, or any condition, causes GBS. You've already indicated no objection to the use of statisical control groups and statistical study groups, so let's see what happens:

GBS occurs normally in the general unvaccinated popilation at the rate of 2 people per 100,000. Therefore, in the vaccinated population, one would expect 2 in every 100,000 people to likewise contract GBS. The rate was 4 in 600,000, which is actually a little less than the expected rate.

The conclusion is that GBS doesn't occur in H1N1a recipients any more than it does in the general unvaccinated population. That demonstrates that the H1N1a vaccine does not have any impact on whether a person contracts CGS. Since no cause and effect relationship can be demonstrated, it is a statement of fact to say that there is no evidence for the claim that H1N1a causes GBS.

 

[carpro]

It is a fact. There is no evidence for the claim that H1N1a vaccine causes GBS.

That's true. There are 4 cases of CBG occurring in persons after receiving the H1N1a vaccine.

Contradictory and very convenient.

If actual cases can be totally disregarded as "evidence", then there will never be any "evidence".

Convenient, as well as ridiculous.

by Johnv
That contradicts what you said earlier. First you claim that there is evidence that H1N1a causes GBS. Now you claim no one can say that the vaccine did or didn't cause GBS.

That's another lie. I warned you about putting words in my mouth.

 

[matt wade]

carpro must have learned how to take snippets out of context from Sean Hannity....and no, that's not a compliment!

 

[annsni]

OK - So the story is that it's not 10 but 4? Out of how many vaccinated.

Now, say there are a million vaccinated and 4 fell ill with GBS. What is the probability of the general population to get GBS? If it's 4 in 1 million, then the vaccine does not increase the incidence of the syndrome.

Additionally, we need to look at the cases that did occur with the vaccine and see if it was the vaccine that triggered it or not. Not sure how you do that but I'd expect that there would be some way to do so.

Even if it were 10 people coming down with GBS, I don't think it's statistically a reason to avoid a vaccine that does seem to be helping the general population. I was against the vaccine in the beginning but as time goes on, I'm not hearing enough reports even from the anti-vaccine/anti-H1N1 vaccine to make me think it is unsafe. Of course we don't have evidence of any long term issues so I'm still not running out to get the shot, but it's not quite so scary now as it was back in October.

 

[Johnv]

That's another lie.

You haven't been able to support your first "that's a lie" claim.

I warned you about putting words in my mouth.

According to your words:
First, you claim the phrase "There is no evidence for the claim that H1N1a vaccine causes GBS" is a lie.
Now, you's claiming that the phrase "no one can say that the vaccine did or didn't cause GBS" is a lie.
According to your words.

Contradictory and very convenient.

Not contradictory at all. The fact that GBS doesn't occur any more in the vaccinated public than in the vaccinated public supports the claim that the H1N1a vaccine isn't a contributor to GBS. Perhaps you're having difficulty understanding objectivity.
Let's make this easier for you:
Please provide evidence that H1N1a causes GBS.

 

[Revmitchell]

That's another lie. I warned you about putting words in my mouth.

His favorite past time.

 

[carpro]

You haven't been able to support your first "that's a lie" claim.

You really need to try the quote feature and stop lying about what people write.

But, then of course, you couldn't misstate what they write to make your points. I can see where that might cause you a problem.

Let me give you a hint. If your point won't stand up to the truth, it's not worth making in the first place..

 

[carpro]

OK - So the story is that it's not 10 but 4? Out of how many vaccinated.

Now, say there are a million vaccinated and 4 fell ill with GBS. What is the probability of the general population to get GBS? If it's 4 in 1 million, then the vaccine does not increase the incidence of the syndrome.

The fallacy of that line of thinking is that the only way you can know what the real statistic is, is to vaccinate the entire population.

 

[Johnv]

You really need to try the quote feature and stop lying about what people write.

It obvious you don't even know what your own position is, because you keep changing it.

Now, if you want to talk facts, it's obvious what the facts are:

The fallacy of that line of thinking is that the only way you can know what the real statistic is, is to vaccinate the entire population.

Uhhh, it's called "control group vs study group". Look it up, because you're starting to sound really ignorant on the subject.

Now, if you want to talk about fallacy in one's line of thinking: Those who are ignorant of what a study group will say that, if 1 in a million get an illness in the general unvaccinated population, and 1 in a million get an illness in the vaccinated population, then the illness must be caused by the vaccination.

 

[carpro]

Uhhh, it's called "control group vs study group". Look it up.

Don't need to.

Comparing a statistic related to 300 million people versus a much smaller group of say, 1 million, is inherently inaccurate.

The only 100 % accurate comparison would have to be obtained by vaccinating the entire population and compare it against the entire unvaccinated population.

 

[Johnv]

Don't need to.

Of course not. It would prove you wrong.

The only 100 % accurate comparison would have to be obtained by vaccinating the entire population and compare it against the entire unvaccinated population.

You should have stopped posting a while ago. Your posts just make you sound more and more ignorant on the topic as you go.

 

[carpro]

Of course not. It would prove you wrong.

Perhaps. Unlike you, I've been wrong before.

But, also unlike you, I've never felt it necessary to lie about what other people write.

 

[Johnv]

You can say "you lie" all day long, but anyone here who looks through the posts will see otherwise.

 

[carpro]

You can say "you lie" all day long, but anyone here who looks through the posts will see otherwise.

:laugh:

They certainly will.

 

[carpro]

Here's an interestint statement from the MAYO Clinic:

The exact cause of Guillain-Barre syndrome is unknown

Guillain-Barre may be triggered by:
■Most commonly, infection with campylobacter, a type of bacteria often found in undercooked food, especially poultry
■Surgery
■Epstein-Barr virus
■Hodgkin's disease
■Mononucleosis
■HIV, the virus that causes AIDS
■Rarely, rabies or influenza immunizations

Even using 4 in 100,000, regardless of the cause, the people who contract it will get no comfort from dispassionately quoted statistics.

BTW the manufacturer lists GBS as one of the many possible complications of taking the vaccine. Afraid of lawsuits, I guess.

Bottom line is that no one is 100% certain of any of it.

 

[Johnv]

Here's an interestint statement from the MAYO Clinic

Nothing in there that's unusual. Of note, though is the fact that everyone should understand that GBS is a syndrome, not a disease.

Even using 4 in 100,000, regardless of the cause, the people who contract it will get no comfort from dispassionately quoted statistics.

Pretending that they got GBS from the vaccine won't help any either.

Bottom line is that no one is 100% certain of any of it.

That's not the bottom line. The bottom line is that there's no evidence to support the claim that the 4 cases of GBS in the OP were caused by the H1N1a vaccine.