1. Born Again.
2. Not Born Again.
3. Indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
4. Not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
5. No additional sacrifice required.
6. Additional sacrifice required.
7. Sins forgiven and forgotten.
8. Sins only covered but not forgiven.
Yeah. I see what you mean. All the same. Rolleyes:)
Challenging statements about the atonement
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Feb 20, 2016.
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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But don't think I'm knocking on you for that, because that goes for everyone. ..even me.
But, when you take into account all that scripture states about the issue of being regenerated, Old vs New covenants, Kingdom of God, inheritance, righteousness, forgiveness, resurrection.....in short, Soteriology....
It's not nearly as cut-and-dry as one account of a man riding off into the sunset. -
That depends on what you think "lost" means-
Most would think the opposite of lost is born again. The opposite of lost is righteous. The opposite of lost is "going to heaven"
So if he's not born again, and he's not righteous, and he's not able to go to heaven, he's lost.
If that's how you see "lost" then yes, in a manner of speaking OT saints were lost.
But no, men weren't lost as in doomed to an eternity in hell. They were viewed as righteous, though the reality had not come yet -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Yea I get it. Your petty list is nothing more than a biased characterization because it is a view other than your own.
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4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
If not saved by He who is preached in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified then there is no hope of salvation. -
But the crux of this matter is "plans of salvation"
That phrase - plan of salvation - is one that just doesn't settle right with me. I think it's like when someone talks about Jesus' incarnation as "came on the scene.
But what does "of" denote? Plan for what leads to salvation, or plan for what stems from salvation? Or something else?
God has one "plan" called salvation, and it is an Eschatological matter. When Christ reigns, and His many brethren are made to share with Him in all things.
However, there are numerous elements involved in that, stretching through time from Adam to the returm of Chrust Himself. And every aspect of the earthly sojourn of a redeemed man is called "salvation" -
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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C. I. Scofield, was one of the leading popularizers of dispensationalism. Scofield made this statement: “As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ. The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation." (Note on John 1:18, Scofield Reference Bible, Oxford University Press, 1909)
Lewis Sperry Chafer, a leading early dispensationalist, says that the dispensation of Law was a forsaking of a previous dispensation of grace, a reversal in the progress of the dispensations. “When the Law was proposed, the children of Israel deliberately forsook their position under the grace of God which had been their relationship to God until that day, and placed themselves under the law."
Chafer went on to say, "The essential elements of a grace administration – faith as the sole basis of acceptance with God, unmerited acceptance through a perfect standing in Christ, the present possession of eternal life, an absolute security from all condemnation, and the enabling power of the indwelling Spirit are not found in the kingdom administration. On the other hand, it is declared to be the fulfilling of ‘the law and the prophets’, and is seen to be an extension of the Mosaic Law into realms of meritorious obligation." (Dispensationalism p.416).
William Evans (Outline Studys of the Bible, p. 34) says:
"This is sometimes called the Age of the Church, or the Church period. The characteristic of this age is that salvation is no longer by legal obedience, but by the personal acceptance of the finished work of Jesus Christ, who by his meritorious ministry has procured for us a righteousness of God’."
The original “plan of salvation” was pure WORKS (Gen. 2:16-17), and in the Millennium the last plan of salvation is again pure WORKS (Rev. 22:14), contrary to every immature, milksop, Baptist baby in your town or city. Genesis 3:22 corrects the kiddies. (Ruckman, Peter. Ruckman’s Bible References: Personal Notes on Salient Verses in the Bible, p. 7)
In the Old Testament, you find salvation before the Law by grace through faith and under the Law by faith and works… (Ruckman, Peter. Body, Soul, and Spirit. 1986, 1997, p. 12)
If the Lord comes and you remain behind, then start working like a madman to get to heaven, because you’re going to have to. You have entered a period of time called “The Great Tribulation,” and the plan of salvation in the Tribulation is faith in Jesus Christ plus your own good works. (Ruckman, Peter. Millions Disappear. 1989, p. 23)
Before the Rapture, you could have been saved by grace through faith plus nothing (Ephesians 2:8-9), but one minute after the Rapture took place you must get out the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule and start learning them, because you’re going to be judged by them (Matthew 25:31-46). (Ruckman, Peter. Millions Disappear. 1989, p. 23)
It will take faith in Christ’s shed blood, plus works—exactly as in the OT it took faith in shed blood and works. (Ruckman, Peter. Millions Disappear. 1989, p. 26)
Just look at some of the posting right here on the Baptist Board regarding the salvation of the Old Testament Saints and you will see all sorts of differences between OT and NT salvation. -
Willem VanGemeren put it this way: “Dispensationalism becomes very important in regard to ecclesiology and eschatology, but is really not about those other areas [concepts of God, man, sin, and salvation]. Some think salvation is at the heart of Dispensationalism, because they erroneously think Dispensationalism teaches multiple methods of salvation. Those who properly understand the position realize its emphasis lies elsewhere.” (VanGemeren, “Systems of Continuity,” Continuity and Discontinuity, 70-71)
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So VanGemeren disagrees with Scofield, Chafer, Evans, (and I won't even include Ruckman. Everybody with an IQ greater than his hat size disagrees with Ruckman :D ).
Well, that's a start. But the fact remains that Scofield, Chafer, and Evans all seem to think the OT saints were saved differently than NT saints. :) -
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“Dispensationalism finds in God’s Word evidence of a series of ‘dispensations’ or economies under which he has managed the world. These dispensations are successive stages in God’s revelation of his purposes. They do not entail different means of salvation , for the means of salvation has been the same at all periods of time, namely, by grace through faith.” (Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 1163)
:D -
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I think we have to also remember that people are not necessarily consistent in their belief...regardless of whether it is truth or error.
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