absolutely agreed, El Guero.
:)
Child molesters and other perpetrators in church?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by El_Guero, Jul 4, 2006.
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Further,
Under the current laws, there is not a 'religious exception' clause that I am aware of in any state. 'We' (the entire Church) are legally required to be vigilent. The requirement is pretty straight forward.
The state has maintained jurisdiction in this matter - only the courts are allowed to 'make exceptions'. And for predators over the age of 16, they don't seem to be making exceptions - period. -
The one caveat:
The older laws allowed predators to have their records sealed or expunged. This action would allow a predator to say, "I honestly have never been convicted for this offense." Some states will allow young predators to still do this.
I personally will ask my workers if there are any offenses in their background that have been sealed - If someone were to 'hide' that kind of past, I would want to move them on. (If they were hiding other sins - we could negotiate where they could serve in the local church.) -
[qupte]Some states do have laws that prohibit convicted sex offenders from being around schools and churches.[/quote]As I say, I am not sure about the latter (churches), but it would be cause for civil disobedience since church attendance is God's requirement and cannot be forbidden by man.
I can find no biblical warrant to expose confessed and repented sins to the congregation. So far, no one has been helpful in giving us biblical basis for it. Guarding the flock can be done without unnecessary exposure.
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The other thing I would say is that we should pay attention to the kind of sex crime they were convicted of. A 19 year old college freshman who dates a 17 year old high school senior and has sex with her is guilty of a sex crime. If the issue is pushed and he is convicted, he will likely have to register. What he did can hardly be put in teh same category with child abuse. I know a guy right now who slept with a high school senior, married her, has kids with her, but still has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life for it. That's really an abuse of the principle, since it was consensual (even though it was sinful).
So the fact that someone shows up on a sex offender list doesn't mean that they are guilty of molesting children.
For those of you who believe that sex offenders should not be allowed in church, what NT institution do you suggest that they find the worship, fellowship, instruction, and service in? Where should they go since you don't think they should be allowed in church?
I also wonder if making it public won't have a negative affect on the person. I would think many people want a chance to start over, especially if they are repentant. They don't want to wonder what people are thinking of them every time they pass them in hallway. And I don't see why they should be subjected to that, provided that proper steps of restoration were taken. I just am not sure I see the value in that at all. -
Being a father, I understand the harshness of folks and also feel the rage within me whenever I hear of child-molestation.
However, I hear and understand Pastor Larry.
It's a difficult dilemma for me.
Perhaps a special ministry church would be a workable solution.
But then the local neighborhood would probably be up in arms.
HankD -
Hank
A special ministry church is where I would send them. Said that some time back, and I have become convinced that is best for all concerned parties.
Wayne -
Larry,
I have been following up with legal counsel. I may have accidently misquoted the intent of the lawyer, but I don't think I did.
Why? Because, first, he said, "He can legally say that he has never been convicted of 'xyz' and be telling the truth. And, second, I did my age old sargeant counseling trick: I parroted it back, without it sounding parroted.
I said back, "Then I should probably set up a questionaire that includes, 'You do not have any records that have been expunged or closed regarding sex offenses do you'?"
He answered, "You could do that, but it still might not catch them'.
That scared me . . .
In His ministry through me - we will not be ministering to homosexuals, nor pedophiles. I have come to this conclusion, both biblically and legally, and I have found that in the case of the church that God is growing through me - these two sins will lead us to send the offenders to special needs ministries. If they were to demand a 'right' to continue in the open fellowship of the body, then their actions would lead to disfellowship.
Should adulterers, liars, thieves, or any other sin based group become a plague and attempt to lead others to sin within the church body, we (the church) will address each and every area of sin.
as mentioned:
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In His ministry through me - we will not be ministering to homosexuals, nor pedophiles.Click to expand...
I have come to this conclusion, both biblicallyClick to expand... -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The church needs to quit worrying so much about background checks. Im not against them except when they take the place of how we are to determine who should be on staff at a church.
Payer and fasting with the word of God is all but ignored these days. It has gone by the way side as a method of determining Gods will. It is looked at as insufficient because of changing times. We do not need background checks or any other kind of check outside of what is in scripture.
No wonder the church has grown weak. God can speak to us more clearer than any background check.And if you have trouble hearing God on these issues then you have no business being a decision maker.
Prayer, fasting, and scripture is all sufficient, I wonder how God called pastors before these things became available 40 years ago.
What a shame. -
In my almost five years on this board, this is the most heartbreaking thing I have ever read. For you to declare that you are unwilling to minister to people for whom Christ died is unconscionable. I don't even know what to say to that. Absolutely disgusting. Heartbreaking beyond belief.Click to expand...
They are not allowed to escape their sin. Can not Christ completely forgive sin? Cannot Christ take away their lust?
Didn't Jesus forgive Magdalene while she touched and handled Him but the pharisees balked.
Why go half-way and "forgive" but not let anyone forget?
Personally I don't see a lot of difference between hiding them from the children in a local church (drawing everyone's attenion to them) and segregating them to a local church more conducive to their ability to worship.
For me it is a dilemma, that's the best I can say.
HankD -
Larry,
Biblical model . . . We are all one in Christ. And in Heaven (where I won't have to worry about the purity of anyone's heart), I will worship beside pedophiles and victims as the lambs and lions play beside the viper's nest.
Until I see you worship beside the cobra, I am not gonna be worshipping beside children and pedophiles.
Until then, I do what I must do to protect the flock - and then I go out to find those that Christ is calling to salvation. Then they are discipled. Then they are being led to become leaders in His Church. -
Larry
For you to demand that I go against God and His leadership to follow you in your ministry to specific groups is even more heartbreaking. I follow God and His Christ.
In my almost five years on this board, this is the most heartbreaking thing I have ever read. For you to declare that you are unwilling to minister to people for whom Christ died is unconscionable. I don't even know what to say to that. Absolutely disgusting. Heartbreaking beyond belief.Click to expand...
Am I ABLE to minister to the groups that you have expressly said you are able to minister to? - no.
You have no limitations - I do have limitations.
My integrity never ONCE failed me in this discourse. I have not attacked you nor your integrity. -
Larry,
I continue to live in peace with the knowledge that my Lord and Savior is leading me biblically and inerrently towards the goal that HE, and not men, set for me.
Stand before your congregation and tell them, "We will bibilically allow pedophiles to worship with us." And I will stand and say, "We continue to stand against pedophilia."
Speak the same truth in love to your congregation that you say you are required to speak to me. -
Well, using this line of reason many would say to segregate away forgiven pedophiles from children in a given local church is just as bad.Click to expand...
Personally I don't see a lot of difference between hiding them from the children in a local church (drawing everyone's attenion to them) and segregating them to a local church more conducive to their ability to worship.Click to expand... -
Biblical model . . . We are all one in Christ. And in Heaven (where I won't have to worry about the purity of anyone's heart), I will worship beside pedophiles and victims as the lambs and lions play beside the viper's nest.Click to expand...
Until then, I do what I must do to protect the flock - and then I go out to find those that Christ is calling to salvation. Then they are discipled. Then they are being led to become leaders in His Church.Click to expand...
For you to demand that I go against God and His leadership to follow you in your ministry to specific groups is even more heartbreaking. I follow God and His Christ.Click to expand...
Am I willing to minister? Yes - you spoke an untruth in my name.Click to expand...
And you have repeatedly done so.Click to expand...
You have no limitations - I do have limitations.Click to expand...
Stand before your congregation and tell them, "We will bibilically allow pedophiles to worship with us." And I will stand and say, "We continue to stand against pedophilia."Click to expand...
Second, I stood tonight before our congregation and relayed the basics of this conversation and declared that repentant pedophiles and homosexuals are welcome to worship in our church and that we will stand against their sin. We will do both, just as Christ did.
Speak the same truth in love to your congregation that you say you are required to speak to me.Click to expand...
So far, Wayne, you have given no biblical justification (and I emphasize biblical justification for that is the rule for the NT church) for why you will exclude from your church people for whom Christ died. If Christ lets them into his church, why do you exclude them from yours? Are you more holy than he is? On what basis do you say you should have higher standards than he has? -
Larry,
You have gone on for pages.
Show one verse that says to protect the 'rights' of offenders over the children. ONE.
For me, these words of my Lord and Savior haunt me:
Matthew 18:5-10 5 "Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. 6 " But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 "Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! 8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. 10 " Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
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El_Guero said:Kris,
I think during the migration to the new software - several things changed.
In order to keep my email hidden (to keep internet 'bots' from putting my email into MORE spam lists), I kept my email 'hidden'. That is why I am not getting email from any one.
You can PM me.
God bless
WayneClick to expand...
Hi Wayne
Actually, I PM'd you, not emailed you. I just wanted to make sure everything was ok, and you verified that clearly for me through your response. May God bless you too :) -
Show one verse that says to protect the 'rights' of offenders over the children. ONE.Click to expand...
I believe children should be protected, and I have been clear about how they should be protected. No pedophile should ever be allowed in public teaching ministry. No pedophile should ever be allowed in a children's ministry, as a worker, chaperone, observer, anything. No pedophile should ever be allowed to linger around children, or children's ministry rooms. No pedophile should ever be without direct and straightforward accountability in teh church. No pedophile should ever be in the church without a deacon nearby who can accompany him whereever he goes. And no repentant pedophile should ever be denied fellowship in the local church. If he has victims in a particular church, he should make it right be confession and then find another biblical church where he can worship and grow, where the pastor will invest what is necessary. I don't know how to be any clearer on this.
Don't try to paint me as one willing to put children in danger. You know I have not said that. I have specifically talked about what we need to do to protect them.
For me, these words of my Lord and Savior haunt me:Click to expand...
Now, having said that, I am 100% for protecting children. I will do nothing to put a child in danger. But the little ones who are repentant pedophiles must not be caused to stumble because they are treated unbiblically when they have repented. And that is what you are doing, I fear. Your treatment of them will cause them to stumble, and probably to leave the church and leave their faith. It would be better for you to be drowned with a millstone around your neck then for you to kick some repentant pedophile out of the church.
Again, I say, I can find no biblical warrant to refuse to minister to those for whom Christ died. If he saved them, then they are a part of the church. -
A pastor friend DID find a legal way to allow parents to know. He went to the website for registered sex offenders, and printed them out for his county and the closest surrounding counties. He then posted the list on the bulletin board. If any of those people showed up, the parents had seen who he/she was and was careful around them with the kids. No one had to be confronted, and they were allowed to worship. IF they left after one or two services never to return, it was assumed that they were up to no good.That way they were able to hear the gospel.
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