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Chosen in Him

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 18, 2019.

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  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your assertion, but that is how I believe it.
    Why?
    Because that is what I see it it saying, word for word.

    From my perspective, eternal life does not get "procured", unless God does the "procuring"...it is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) that He gives to whomsoever He wishes, not a reward.
     
    #61 Dave G, Jan 22, 2019
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I would be interested in what translation you are reading because I can't find any translation that reads like that. Every translation that I have reads "chosen UNTO SALVATION" rather than "chosen through sanctification and belief of the truth"

    If you have a translation that omits "unto salvation" please point it out.



    that is precisly what I am saying, God chose us UNTO Salvation and it is a gift to whomsoever he wishes.

    Are you sure you are understanding what I said?
     
    #62 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2019
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."     ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, AV )

    The believer is chosen to salvation, through two things...

    Sanctification of the spirit.
    Belief of the truth.

    Again, I think we're talking around each other.;)
     
    #63 Dave G, Jan 22, 2019
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Precisely, the words "to salvation" use the preposition "eis" with an accusative noun ("salvation") which means the action of choosing has it terminating point in the accusative "salvation." In contrast the preposition "dia" translated "through" shows the means for this accomplishment in time and space. Hence, divine choice is unto salvation, the divine means is through setting us apart by the Spirit (regeneration) and the belief of the truth (gospel conversion).
     
    #64 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2019
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    And again, we agree.
    Although, I didn't need the Greek to tell me all that.;)

    I get it from reading the text alone.

    Bless you sir.:)
     
    #65 Dave G, Jan 22, 2019
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    We are chosen for salvation through (1) being set apart in Christ - the sanctification by the Spirit, and (2) based on God crediting our faith as righteousness - the faith in the truth.

    Next, James 2:5 says God chose those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. So again the choice includes God's determination that those chosen are "rich in faith."

    Next, look at 1 Peter 1:1-2 (NASB)
    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
    2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

    Note the absence of "for salvation" so "through sanctification by the Spirit" once again describes the choice.

    Once again our conditional election during our lifetime has the support of all scripture.
     
    #66 Van, Jan 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I was saying we agree by the word "precisely." Just giving more evidence, not trying to convince you because we agreed.
     
    #67 The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2019
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What does the phrase mean,"did not God chose the poor to the world." (James 2:5 NASB) Does it mean the "world" (fallen mankind,) viewed at least some of the chosen as poor according to the world's value system. Does 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 shed light on the phrase? I think so.

    Our conditional election "for salvation" (the phrase indicating the purpose of the election) occurred during our lifetime (such that the world was aware of at least some of the chosen) and was based on (1) faith in the truth, (2) love of God. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5)
     
    #68 Van, Jan 23, 2019
  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    In the NASB, it says, " Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world [to be] rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?"
    In my Bible, it says, " Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" ( James 2:5 )

    I'm not sure where you're getting the phrase you posted above.

    To me, it means what it says:
    "Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He has promised to them that love Him?"

    God has chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith.
    They are also heirs of the kingdom which He has promised to those that love Him.

    I agree.

    I'm sorry, I don't agree.
    If election is conditional, then to me, mankind can buy His way to Heaven and escape Hell based on his own efforts.


    This is my final reply in this thread.
    May God, in His grace and mercy, bless all of you with wisdom beyond mere words.:)
     
    #69 Dave G, Jan 23, 2019
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    My phrase is a exact quote from the NASB. You should have been able to not manufacture an issue.

    Our conditional election "for salvation" (the phrase indicating the purpose of the election) occurred during our lifetime (such that the world was aware of at least some of the chosen) and was based on (1) faith in the truth, (2) love of God. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5)
    The verses I posted present our conditional election. You can claim they do not mean what that say, but that dog will not hunt. Since all our works of righteousness are filthy rags to God, your objection if conditional election has no merit. It is God who credits our worthless faith as righteousness. Without that, our faith would not "buy" our "way to Heaven."

     
    #70 Van, Jan 23, 2019
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    To summarize:
    1) The second Person of the Trinity was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Lamb of God and Redeemer as part of God's redemption plan. 1 Peter 1:17-21.

    2) All those the Redeemer would redeem were chosen corporately as the target group (believers in Christ) as another part of God's redemption plan, thus we were chosen in Him. Ephesians 1:4

    3) Our individual conditional election for salvation occurred during our lifetime, after we had lived without mercy because we were not yet part of God's chosen people. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    4) Our individual conditional election for salvation was through (1) being set apart in Christ- the sanctification of the Spirit and (2) based of God crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
    #71 Van, Jan 24, 2019
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I think most people would agree that when we were chosen individually for salvation, we obtained mercy.

    However scripture teaches we lived without mercy before we obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10) Thus scripture precludes individual election for salvation before creation.
     
    #72 Van, Jan 24, 2019
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    yes indeed;
    ylt-13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
     
    #73 Iconoclast, Jan 25, 2019
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  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Better watch it...they'll start saying that version is an evil Calvinist version...a version of perversion. ;) :rolleyes:
     
    #74 SovereignGrace, Jan 25, 2019
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You know B....there seems to be no limits that some will go to obscure the truth. Not only did all fail to effectively question or disprove any portion of your thread, but they are trying to sneak in another way.
     
    #75 Iconoclast, Jan 25, 2019
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  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    SG,
    Just when you think you have seen it all they try to sneak around, leave words out of verses.Biblicist pitched a shutout in the other thread.:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious:Notworthy, and yet they are trying again:Notworthy:Redface:Redface
     
    #76 Iconoclast, Jan 25, 2019
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  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Shutout? Pffft!! Hardly! Try a perfect game.

    [​IMG]
     
    #77 SovereignGrace, Jan 25, 2019
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Five efforts to nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13. But "through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" tells us how we were chosen for salvation. The grammar argument was destroyed by 1 Peter 1:1-2 where we were chosen by the sanctifying work of the Spirit. Thus the effort to sever the link between chosen and faith in the truth failed. And conditional election is once again shown to be the biblical doctrine.
     
    #78 Van, Jan 25, 2019
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When we are chosen individually and transferred into Christ, our names are recorded in the Lamb's book of life. If we were chosen individually before the foundation of the world, our names would be written in the book before the foundation of the world. If, on the other hand, we were chosen during our lifetime, then our names would be written from or since the foundation of the world.
    New American Standard Bible
    All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

    Christian Standard Bible
    All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

    NET Bible
    and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.
     
    #79 Van, Jan 28, 2019
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No it does not! It modifies "salvation" and tells us how salvation is obtained. We were "chosen TO" salvation but salvation comes "through".
     
    #80 The Biblicist, Jan 28, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
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