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Christ made Sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Feb 7, 2019.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Under the old covenant a transfer of identity was made between the one who offered the sacrifice and the sacrifice itself.
    Sacrifice in Ancient Israel

    The sinner brought "his sin" to the altar to be consumed and also identified with the destruction of the life force of sin - the flesh with its blood.

    Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    I believe this is the parallel Paul is drawing in 2 Corinthians 5:21.
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    AGREE!
     
  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Martin Marprelate has stated the Greek quite well. As always, you have demonstrated a lack of acumen for anything having to do with Koine Greek. Here is the verse in Greek:

    21 τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν, ἵνα ἡμεῖς γενώμεθα δικαιοσύνη θεοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ.​

    For the sake of your limitations, I will provide a type of interlinear:

    21 τὸν (The one) μὴ γνόντα (not having known) ἁμαρτίαν (sin) ὑπὲρ (on behalf) ἡμῶν (of us) ἁμαρτίαν (sin) ἐποίησεν (he made/caused), ἵνα (so that) ἡμεῖς (we) γενώμεθα (might become) δικαιοσύνη (righteousness) θεοῦ (of God) ἐν αὐτῷ (in Him).​

    Some preliminary things:
    1. "That we might become the righteousness of God in Him" isn't simply a dependent clause; the presence of ἵνα denotes both purpose and result in the second clause as it is related to the first clause. So, the first clause (He made Him who knew no sin...), being primary, has its fulfillment (for lack of a better word) in the second clause (that we might become...).

    2. The word order of the clauses does not dictate the word order of the English translation. Often, word order in Greek will be used to emphasize certain aspects of the sentence itself. In this passage, Christ's sinlessness is what is highlighted by being placed first in the sentence--though it isn't the subject.
    Now, for the pertinent information:

    First clause (τὸν μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν)
    1. The subject of this clause is the last word, ἐποίησεν. ἐποίησεν is Aorist Active Indicative 3rd person singular. It is the only verb in the clause. Greek verbs have an implied subject. In this case the subject is "He," and it refers to God.

    2. In Greek, the subject of a sentence is given in what is called the "Nominative case." There are no nominative nouns or pronouns in the first clause. Therefore, there is no possibility that something other than "He made" is the basic subject-verb of this clause.

    3. ἁμαρτίαν is in the accusative case. In Greek the accusative case is the case of the direct object. In this instance, it precedes ἐποίησεν. So, the basic subject-verb-direct object is: He made sin.

    4. τὸν (accusative pronoun related to γνόντα) μὴ (negative particle) γνόντα (aorist accusative participle, singular masculine related to τὸν ) ἁμαρτίαν (accusative noun) ὑπὲρ (preposition, with a genitive object, meaning "on behalf of) ἡμῶν (personal pronoun, 1st person genitive plural) are all accusative (except, of course the genitive pronoun).

    5. Here is a good translation by a commentator:
      “For God caused Christ, who knew nothing of sin, to be sin for our sake.”[1]
    So, it is not possible grammatically to take this as Jesus "taking on sin." For that to be the case, you would have to have ἐποίησεν in the middle voice, which you don't; it's in the active voice here. What is clear is that Jesus (the one who never knew sin) is being "made sin." In other words Jesus is being acted upon. In the context it is God who is acting on Him; it is God causing Him to be sin. Now, we might debate what "caused him to be sin" means, but it simply cannot be what you say it is. Jesus is not acting upon Himself and the grammar will not allow that as a possibility.

    The Archangel


    [1] Murray J. Harris, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Milton Keynes, UK: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co.; Paternoster Press, 2005), 449.
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks Archangel, your post rings true. The subject must be supplied or a grammatical transformation must be performed.

    The two points of enlightenment are, the subject must be supplied, and once supplied it is the subject doing the action, and therefore the One knowing no sin is being acted upon. Which of course leaves us with "made sin" or made a sin sacrifice.

    So I am forced to join with many others and accept the "sin sacrifice" translation choice.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    God through us as ambassadors of Christ, begs you: Be reconciled to God, for He made the One knowing no sin for our sake a sin sacrifice, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Christ's sacrifice resulted in Him becoming our propitiatory shelter, so that anyone God transfers into Christ spiritually is made the righteousness of God.
     
    #45 Van, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  6. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    No, the subjects doesn't have to be "supplied." The subject is present in the verb "made." There isn't an "implied" subject; there is an actual subject.

    Do not mistake my words in the previous post about an "implied subject" to say that the reader/translator is supplying a subject where one does not exist. What I was expressing by "implied" can be illustrated by the English imperative. In English an imperative has the implied "You" as the subject. But, one is not assigning a subject; the grammar itself demands the subject. So, in Greek, there are definite articles, but they do not need to be present to articulate the presence of a subject. The verb ἐποίησεν, by definition, says "He made" because it is third person singular.

    No, "made sin," or "made to be sin" is what it says. In Greek, the being verb is often omitted and must be supplied in English. Whether one chooses to supply it between "made" and "sin" cannot change the Greek into "sin sacrifice."

    "Sin sacrifice" is not a translation choice; it is an interpretation.

    The Archangel
     
    #46 The Archangel, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    John Gill was one of the greatest Baptist theologians of all time, and Jesus became sin did not mean that he actually became a sinner who needed to get born again, as WoF holds that meaning!
     
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It should be noted:

    In this discussion, the text is not saying that God made Jesus sin (as in compelled Him to violate the law, to commit an immoral act, etc.). If this was what Paul was intending to convey, he would likely have used the infinitive form of the verb γίνομαι.

    When discussing the meaning of what it means that "God made him... sin" there are several factors to consider--most of which Martin Marprelate has done an excellent job in articulating. What must be remembered is that God is doing something to Christ with the result that we (those who believe in Him) will become the righteousness of God.

    The Archangel
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Neither martin nor myself ever state that Jesus became a sinner, and he did indeed face being forsaken by the Father while upon that Cross, as that was what happens to all who are judged by a Holy God, and Jesus as the sin bearer faced that judgment for our sake!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He and I have NEVER stated that Jesus became a sinner, just that God had to treat Him as if he had! And you are the one that seems to be acting as if none of us who question your new "enlightened" views of any scripture to stand upon, as you have "advanced" beyond what you once held as being true!
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus took upon Himself all of our sin debts, and yet also remained sinless in his own natures!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The actual Greek would favor what Martin holds with on this issue, as to get to sin offering, one is forced there by ones belief on things such as wrath of God, being forsaken, not from Greek text by itself!
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Whatever God did to Jesus while on that Cross, Jesus fully accepted it to be done, and it made the Father treat Him as he had had sinned, and was forsaken by God for our sake!
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would you say that this involves a transaction between God and Jesus that allows us to receive His own righteousness, as He receives in some sense our sin debts?
     
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    So you have changed your mind from your initial post?
    Of course you are quite entitled to change your mind. I will only remind you that 'the word' is hamartian (twice) and that word is never used SFAIK to describe a sin offering in the Bible.
     
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  16. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Would I? Perhaps. Transaction here is not necessarily in view. I would say "yes" as long as it is understood that Jesus is not an unwilling participant in this drama. Also, imputation is strongly suggested by the use of ἁμαρτίαν in 2 Cor 5:21, and the surrounding context shows what you're describing here: Double imputation.

    The Archangel
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    One gets to it being sin offering only by bringing into this as they view wrath of God towards Jesus, and Him being really forsaken, as those against that view will force sin offering into text!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is why the PST view really nails the atonement, as it explains just how and why this double imputation happened!
     
  19. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Notice that I updated my post in the minute between my posting it and you quoting it.

    The Archangel
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting how some here keep stating that those of us like Martin and yourself and me are allowing our "traditions" to override the scriptures, and yet what we hold with comes from the Greek itself, as its just the way it was written down!
     
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