How dare you insult me like that!
Actually, I am loosely quoting Charles Haddon Spurgeon on that and that position is thoroughly Calvinistic. You are probably just confusing single-predestination Calvinists(the majority among Calvinists) with double-predestination Calvinists.
Christ was Arminian?
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003.
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Bob, when you peak over the ramparts of heaven (whatever it is those are) and see your own precious daughter there, what will you think? </font>[/QUOTE]Do you notice how Calvinist hate it when we personalize their doctrine?
The fact is, if Calvinism is true, some people will have close loved ones who die and go to hell as a direct result of God's imputing Adam's sin upon them and then not choosing to save them from that which He bound them over to.
The fact is, "God bound all men over to sin," and it is also a fact that He shows "mercy to them all." Rom. 11:32.
It does not say that he binds all men over to sin so that he may have mercy on some of them and leave the others for wrath. The reason all are bound is so he may have mercy on them ALL. -
When I am in heaven, if I am forced to look over the ramparts to see my precious daughter writhing in the agony of hell, I will understand exactly the same thing that the noncalvinist understands: THAT SHE IS THERE BECAUSE OF HER SIN! :mad:
Whew! Ken's right....shouting works! -
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I believe the error with this is viewing that man is not born sinful and that at the age of accountability he/she then becomes responsible to God for the sin nature which they I hear many 'sovereign Grace' believers appeal to this all the time, and then hear them Amen sound Sovereign Grace Doctrine when it is taught or preached. Somehow, they do not make the connection that a 'mysterious' age of accountability, then we enter into the sinful nature, this is not Biblical, nor is it agreeable; one must be true and the other not, but both cannot be had.
BTW, it is reasonable to say that 'all civilizations' practice something similar to christianity, just as similarities can be seen of the Jewish and druid religions. This is because man was replenished upon the earth by the sons of Noah. But it was the line of Shem that the oracles and prophecies and the worship of the true God was given. The presence of a 'flood' story (though almost always variant from the Bible) is seen in all major civilizations.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas -
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That is true, it does not make the messenger heartless nor uncaring for his friends and loved ones, nor others they do not even know, but it shows the helplessness of man further and in a depth some are unable to fathom because they are permitting their emotions to blind them to the truth of God's word.
Bro. Dallas -
The parable of the master and the servant where they servant is forgiven a large debt and fails to forgive someone a small debt so his forgiveness is revolked strikes fear in the heart of those who don't forgive.
The story of the prodigal son raises all kinds of emotions. And consider the story of the man suffering in hell and desiring to warn others and to have just a drop of water on his tongue. If that story doesn't plead with the emotions of a man, I don't know what does.
You can't ignore the fact that God has made us emotional creatures and uses emotion to teach us about himself and to draw us to himself. -
The "Age of accountability" point in the illustration was simply to avoid a few Calvinist "dodges" (and to "setup" the Arminian response for how the Arminian would deal with the SAME problem).
What this does for the Calvinist case is remove the escape of consoling yourself with the thought that no "witnessing" was possible for the child. Try not to get lost on that point.
But since you asked HOW the Arminian would view that SAME situation - you will now get that devastating solution to THAT one as well - also posted last time.
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Lets try the Arminian view of the future - where you go to heaven as one of the "FEW" and find that your precious child was one of the "MANY" of Matt 7.
(Note: There is a God, there will be a day of judgment, not everyone is going to heaven. So we would then have the following scenario - that you might "expect" if the doctrines of Grace as seen in the Arminian teachings are true..).
Bob -
Hey, One-Note Bob, we answered this silliness of yours a few months ago when you kept posting this trash in this forum ad nauseam.
You say that God is unfair in saving some and not saving others. Frankly, you have no standing as a creature to call your Creator unfair.
If your Arminian scheme was true(praise God it is not), then no one would be saved as your scheme requires man to do something that he not able to do - contribute something to his own salvation and be able to boast.
[ April 18, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Ken the Spurgeonite ] -
Frankly, there'll be no looking back or over the ramparts, or any other hindsight. So, the issue of lost friends and family is a completely moot point! Not worthy of discussion. No one in heaven is going to grieve over those who did not respond in belief.
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life..." so unless one comes through Jesus, they ain't gonna make it!
There will be emotional activity in Heaven, because Joy is an emotion, exceeding happiness is an emotion, etc. -
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Don't make too much of my statement Ken, there is much that BobRyan brings to this Forum that is exactly what we should discuss.
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I congratulate my Calvinist bretheren for making it that far in their substantive response to the problem the scenario poses for Calvinism.
It is certainly fair to expect them to note that in their continual dodge of an actual answer - the re-posting of the problem-scenario will just continue to plague them.
It is my belief that as singularly devastating points are made against Calvinism - to which there can be "no response" - they will content themselves to complain "of its existence" rather than seek for substantive replies.
However I did not ask that they demonstrate that point over-and-over-and-over again. They do that as an added bonus.
In Christ,
Bob -
Rev 14:10 says that the wicked suffer "IN the Presence of the Lamb and of his saints". Literal, real, immediate presence.
The contrast between what the two models predicts is not "that we won't love our children anymore" as you propose. (Although there is a common assumption made in some extreme Calvinist camps that God will "pith" the brains of the saints so they will care as little for their lost children as He does).
Certainly that group has a "grizzley solution" for the dilemma that I posted. But as yet - no one has offerred it here.
In Christ,
Bob -
Christ shows all through scripture that even HE mourns over the fate of the lost. His people will never be called to rejoice at the suffering and torment of their own precious children.
In Christ,
Bob -
What you say is right BobRyan, but Family relationships in Heaven will not have the meaning or importance they do in this life. After the judgment we have no insight into the activities in heaven or on the New Earth or New Jerusalem. However we are told that there will be no marrying or marriage in heaven. So why would there be other family considerations? We are all brother's and sisters, but I believe there will be no gender either. What purpose would gender serve?
Let me take this one step further and say that I believe we will not have flesh bodies either. I believe we will recognize each other by our spiritual attributes. Will spouses recognize each other; Parents their children; siblings each other? Sure, why not? Will they grieve for the ones who did not make it? I don't think so. I think those will be blotted from our memory. -
I know I for one answered your silly tirade a few months ago. Perhaps you should find it and review it. Personally, I thought my answer was quite good and sound. -
Maybe you should review your answer and observe that while you speculate that "most will be saved" no matter what Christ said in Matt 7, you dodged the fact that EVEN in your model you have to allow for some parents losing children.
BTW your invalid-Matt7 approach is A defense that few on this board (Calvinist-or-Arminian) would accept.
You do not address the point that EVEN in your strained view of MAtt 7 you can not deny that some parent will see their child is lost.
You do not address the points raised you simply argue that "fewER parents will have that problem" in your "Matt7-is-wrong" theology, than in mine.
I can hardly assign the "matt-7-is-wrong" defense to the Calvinists on this board as "Their answer" and I don't think you would either.
Maybe you are just obfuscating hoping that We "won't remember" your non-Calvinist non-Arminian solution??
In Christ,
Bob
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