Christian Schools Sue State University

[jcrawford]

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2005/08/27/university_of_calif_sued_over_creationism/

The article says that the lawsuit "accused the University of California system of discriminating against high schools that teach creationism and other conservative Christian viewpoints by refusing to certify high school science courses that use textbooks challenging Darwin's theory of evolution. Other rejected courses include Christianity's Influence in American History. According to the lawsuit, the Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murrieta was told its courses were rejected because they use textbooks printed by two Christian publishers, Bob Jones University Press and A Beka Books. Wendell E. Bird, a lawyer for the association, said the policy violates the rights of students and religious schools.

So the case is about UC's refusing to certify high school science courses that use textbooks challenging Darwin's theory of evolution and on Christianity's Influence in American History. According to the lawsuit, one School was told its courses were rejected because they use textbooks printed by two Christian publishers, Bob Jones University Press and A Beka Books. It is also about whether UC's admission policies violate the rights of students and religious schools.

All that the religious schools have to do to win their case is to show the court that they teach creationist beliefs about human origins and common ancestry in science classes because creationist literature has documented the historical and inherent racism in neo-Darwinist theories and teachings about human origins and evolution from non-human ancestors of African apes in Africa, and don't think such racial theories and teachings about the origins of the human race and subsequent human ancestry belong in a highschool science class.

 

[mcdirector]

I saw this article on another board I frequent.

Since UC will not validate science courses using these texts, you would think that all these textbooks address is creationism VS evolution. That is just not true. It is a part of some of the text books -- it depends on the course. AND both are as adequate a science text as I've seen with some secular texts.

 

[El_Guero]

It is about time that some of the rampant discrimination of evolutionists against Christians be curtailed.

 

[Daisy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
It is about time that some of the rampant discrimination of evolutionists against Christians be curtailed.

Right, antiscience should be accepted as science if Christians say it should. It's discrimination of the academic kind to maintain that only science should be taught in science classes.

 

[jcrawford]

Originally posted by Daisy:
Right, antiscience should be accepted as science if Christians say it should. It's discrimination of the academic kind to maintain that only science should be taught in science classes. [/QB]

Omitting neo-Darwinist race theories about the origins of the human race in high school science classes is not anti-science. It is anti-racist.

 

[El_Guero]

JC

Daisy is not the first person to discriminate against me because I believe in the Bible ... At least she is not a professor and cannot lower my grade ... Yes, I have been the victim of:

discrimination of the academic kind

As a math major with an emphasis in engineering, I can safely state that a significant amount of the "science" taught today is not a subset of Science.

 

[jcrawford]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Yes, I have been the victim of:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> discrimination of the academic kind

As a math major with an emphasis in engineering, I can safely state that a significant amount of the "science" taught today is not a subset of Science. </font>[/QUOTE]Good for you, El_Guero! More Christian students and teachers in public schools should speak out against the blatant racism and discrimination they face daily when ridiculed and opressed by neo-Darwinist science teachers and students in public schools.

Can you believe that our public representatives still allow the teaching of anti-Christian and pro-Darwinist race theories to all American children in public high schools today?

If you want to know just how anti-Christian and racist neo-Darwinist theories of human origins and evolution really are, read Marvin Lubenow's devasting thesis in "Bones of Contention," published by BakerBooks in 2004. It's got over 1000 scientific footnotes plus the latest listing of the complete human fossil record available in Christian bookstores today.

 

[Daisy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Daisy is not the first person to discriminate against me because I believe in the Bible ... At least she is not a professor and cannot lower my grade ...

No, El_Guero, I judge you on your own individual merit.

Yes, I have been the victim of:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> discrimination of the academic kind

As a math major with an emphasis in engineering, I can safely state that a significant amount of the "science" taught today is not a subset of Science. </font>[/QUOTE]Care to elaborate?

 

[El_Guero]

Thank God I am judged by the merit of His Son.

I stood for Jesus and I paid the penalty.

 

[Daisy]

Ok, but how were you discriminated against? Did your teachers expect you to learn actual science or something?

 

[UTEOTW]

If these courses are teaching something other than the established and accepted scientific theories, then they should not be certified. It is quite simple. Common descent is the only viable explanation for the wealth of data that we have observed concerning present and past life on earth. If folks want to teach their kids something different, that's fine, but it is not science and should not be called such.

"It is about time that some of the rampant discrimination of evolutionists against Christians be curtailed."

Yes, because it is soooooo discriminatory to insist that actual science be taught our young people. The horror that they might learn the truth!

"Daisy is not the first person to discriminate against me because I believe in the Bible ... At least she is not a professor and cannot lower my grade ... Yes, I have been the victim of:"

So if a kids parents teach him that 2 + 2 = 5 and he honestly believes it and the teacher insists on marking the problem incorrect, the kid is being discriminated against?

So were you discriminated against for your beliefs or did you not do the science correctly because you personally think that it is not right? Big difference.

"As a math major with an emphasis in engineering, I can safely state that a significant amount of the '"science' taught today is not a subset of Science."

Care to elaborate?

I have an engineering degree and I don't remember being taught anything in those classes that was not scientific. Or are you giving us your credentials but then referring to a subject outside of math and engineering?

 

[El_Guero]

JC & MC

It is a shame that intelligent Christians are expected to hang their (& maybe our) heads in shame that they actually believe God and His Word.

But it defies scientific method and logic to expect us to lie to make Darwinians feel good. And it denies God's Word.

In the past I attempted to dialogue with some that held that God was a Darwinian.

It did not take long and their "science" quickly disolved into an assault of error mixed with fact. The only thing accomplished was to divulge their use of overwhelming data. Hyposthesis was accepted as theory, naturally theory easily become their "fact".

I just thank God that discrimination is being fought against.

 

[UTEOTW]

"It is a shame that intelligent Christians are expected to hang their (& maybe our) heads in shame that they actually believe God and His Word."

If you look around a bit you'll see that there have been some very good cases made showing how an old earth fits in with the Bible without contradiction and in some ways better than a YE interpretation.

"But it defies scientific method and logic to expect us to lie to make Darwinians feel good."

Who was asking you to lie. Evolution is the dominant theory of biology. No other theory can explain the vast number of observations that support evolution. It is not a lie to accurately regurgitate what you have been taught about such things.

"It did not take long and their "science" quickly disolved into an assault of error mixed with fact."

What do you think are some of the biggest errors in the old earth sciences?

"The only thing accomplished was to divulge their use of overwhelming data."

Not sure of your point there. The data is overwhelming for common descent, an old earth and an old universe. There sure is not a problem in pointing that out. It also is a huge problem that YE has no ideas on how to even begin explaining the overwhelming amount of data in a better way.

"I just thank God that discrimination is being fought against."

Why would you thank God that a group of folks calling themselves Christian leaders have managed to go out and sow misrepresentations about the science in the name of God in support of their false YE beliefs?

 

[Daisy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
JC & MC

I see, we're not going to talk to some people directly. In a debate forum, we'll just pretend the "others who shall not be named" aren't here. Silly game of "Ostrich" or is it "Snub the Opposition"?

It is a shame that intelligent Christians are expected to hang their (& maybe our) heads in shame that they actually believe God and His Word.

It is a shame that certain posters seem to forget that everyone here believes in God and His Word.

But it defies scientific method and logic to expect us to lie to make Darwinians feel good.

How do you defy a method?

Hmm, it actually does NOT defy logic to expect you to lie to make Darwinians feel good if they control your grade.

But who asked you to lie? You don't have to accept something to understand it.

And it denies God's Word.

Christians disagree on this point.

In the past I attempted to dialogue with some that held that God was a Darwinian.

And now you post on a debate forum in a most discourteous way. Were you very tramatised at not prevailing?

It did not take long and their "science" quickly disolved into an assault of error mixed with fact. The only thing accomplished was to divulge their use of overwhelming data. Hyposthesis was accepted as theory, naturally theory easily become their "fact".

I once got into a debate with a YECer - it soon became apparent that although he knew the vocabulary, he was utterly clueless as to the meaning and application.

I just thank God that discrimination is being fought against.

I hope that science will continue to be taught in science class and that religion will not be passed off as science. If that is dicrimination, I pray it continues.

 

[jcrawford]

You can read the complaint for yourself here.

http://www.acsi.org/webfiles/webitems/attachments/007875_2.%20ACSI%20CA%20Complaint.pdf

 

[El_Guero]

JC

That is scary ... If we are Christians, we may have to give up the opportunity to attend "Higher Education".

This could put new meaning to what Paul wrote to the Phillipians about giving up all for Christ ...

 

[UTEOTW]

It is not discrimination to require students to have taken coursework that is appropriate. If you want your course to count as biology, then you cannot teach that that the lynchpin of modern biology is false. It just will not work. It is the same as teaching your child that 2 + 2 really equals 5 and then complaining about discrimination when a college refuses to accept a math class where such is taught.

This is not discrimination against a religious viewpoint. It is insistance that if you wish to claim credit for having studied a given subject, that the subject accually to have been taught. If they are being taught the typical YE / ID garbage, they might be learning something but it is not biology and it is not true.

The university should be applauded for setting standards and sticking to them. More educational institutions should do the same.

It also should be pointed out that there are alternatives presented for these students by the university. Since they choose to take uncertified courses, they cannot be admitted through the most popular route but they still have the option of being admitted through the “Eligible by Examination Alone” option. It is more difficult, but they should be taught that you must take responsibility for your choices. Their choice was to try and sneak in something that is not biology as biology. It did not work. They pay the price.

Furthermore, the admission requirements only require that a student have taken 2 courses of physics, chemistry and biology. They could easily have taken chemistry and physics amd avoided the whole biology problem. Or if they are really serious students, they should have taken all three. The chemistry and physics get them in and it does not matter that they chose to not take real biology. If you expect to go to college, you should take a science, a math, an English and a history course every year of high school.

On a side note, I guess you are refusing to answer the questions from or even dialogue with those who do not share your viewpoint. Interesting.

[ September 05, 2005, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: UTEOTW ]

 

[El_Guero]

JC & MC

I thank God that I can place my faith in Him. Someday, I will have a "Higher Education" that is "worth the price of admission".

That admission price is worth every drop of blood that was shed to write it indelibly upon my heart.

Jesus Created the Heavens and the Earth. Soon He will roll it back like a scroll.

 

[gb93433]

I would contend that we have an even greater problem when 2/3 of the churches in America are either plateaued or declining.

Colleges and universitites are now looking at much more than just academics and grades. They are considering leadership qualities as well. They wqant leaders not just those who get good grades.

Personally I do not see the discrimination of Christians as being any different than when the SBC encouraged their members to pull their children out of public schools and Christian parents vote down local school improvements in those southern areas of the U.S. If the schools are so bad why would any of those Christians want to attend any public schools.

Take a look at the church in the following article
http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=21464

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by UTEOTW:



Furthermore, the admission requirements only require that a student have taken 2 courses of physics, chemistry and biology. They could easily have taken chemistry and physics amd avoided the whole biology problem. Or if they are really serious students, they should have taken all three.

They should have taken more than just three.