Originally posted by Rookiepastor:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rookiepastor:
I think that all of us need to be honest with God and ourselves...
</font>[/QUOTE]Being honest with God is called
confession (not the Roman Catholic idea). Confession is to say the same thing as God says about our sin, namely that our sin is evil, rotten, filthy, dirty, wicked and without excuse. It is agreeing with God about our sin. It is without excuse!
A good start would be to introduce yourself in the following manner:
"Hi, My name is _______ and I am a recovering sinner, pray for me”
God Bless
This is horrible advice! What in the world is a recovering sinner? This is a cliché of the so-called “Christian” recovery movement. A sinner is a sinner—either repentant or unrepentant. There’s no middle ground.
Paul knew nothing of a “
recovering sinner” as he wrote: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:1-23)”
And where do you find the Biblical basis for this nonsense? Despite the pious terms, you are speaking straight Jungian heresy that tries to connect with the god within. It is very sad day when professing Christians have no discernment.
Brother, you have made many assumptions about me, based upon a simple statement. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What assumptions have you assumed that I made?
I have no idea who or what Jungian is... I do not care...
Does this mean that you choose to remain ignorant? Paul warns that we are to be wise and discerning “[l]est Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Corinthians 2:11) “ The Apostle warns: “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:3)” This is the danger we face when we start spouting Jungian clichés. After awhile, they become so familiar that we think they are true without discerning the subtle different between the psychological lie and the truth of God’s Word.
I know that the Word of God, teaches that we are all sinners...
Romans 3:23
The Bible says that we are sinners, not recovering sinners. The two thoughts are antithetical. Now, we are either unrepentant, unforgiven sinners abiding under the judgment and wrath of God or we are repentant and forgiven sinners saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Nowhere does the Scripture teach that we are recovering sinners.
Even after we are saved, we continue to struggle with sin. Read Romans 7 about the struggle that Paul had.
Romans 7 does not say that Paul was a recovering sinner nor does it give that idea (read chapter 6)! The Biblical idea is clearly explained by the struggle between the old man and the new man. It is the battle between the flesh and the Spirit (see Galatians 5).
The concept of a recovering sinner is clearly adopted from the secular recovery movement and 12-step programs which are a direct derivative of Jungian psychology. The Biblical view of a sinner and the recovery idea (i.e. recovering sinner) are two entirely different animals. Anyone who says differently must not understand the meaning of one or the other.
I know that as a Christian and as a Pastor I want as many people praying for me as possible.
This is totally irrelevant and immaterial since I do not oppose and did not say anything against intercessory prayer. It is Biblical and I do believe strongly in intercessory prayer.
Remember 1 John was written to Christians. In that wonderful little book we find 1 Jn 1:9. If Christians do not struggle with sin, why is that included in this book written to believers?
Again, there is a world of difference between the concepts of a recovering sinner and one who is a forgiven sinner struggling with temptation and sin. 1 John 1:9 is true and rightly applied to the believer but you must also read and understand 1 John 3:2-10; 5:2-5,18-20. John writes in black and white contrasts.
Now I have given you Scripture to back up my statement of requesting prayer, and that Christians constantly struggle with sin on a daily basis.
The real problem is that your Scripture does not say anything about a
recovering sinner. It surely does
NOT back up your statement of being a recovering sinner. A sinner is unrepentant and under God’s judgment or he is forgiven and his sins are under the Blood of Christ. There is no recovering sinner of Scripture in the sense of the term in modern usage.
Let me emphasize that the term recovering sinner is a concept taken directly from the unbiblical recovery movement with its attendant debt to Jungian psychology. You cannot sanitize and clean up this false, unscriptural movement by talking about Jesus and adding a few Bible verses out of context. This is like inserting the name Jesus and Bible verses in the
Tibetan Book of the Dead or the
Koran.
What I would like from you is the following:
1. What did you assume about me and my lack of discernment, after only reading a simple statement?
I didn’t assume anything about you and I didn’t say anything about you. I just attacked what you said. IMHO, it is undiscerning for any professing Christian to favorably quote, unwittingly or not, ideas based on pagan sources (Carl Jung was a neopagan) although a couple of steps removed (i.e. Jung -> AA -> "Christian" recovery movement).
Why are you personalizing this and taking it personally? I have no personal argument with you. I still believe in the old-fashioned idea of debating and arguing ideas upon their own merits. The problem is that people want to take things personally when their ideas are refuted. This is paranoia. I did not call you names, question your character or sincerity, ridicule you, disparage your person,
etc. I just said that you are wrong in your advice.
2. What would even make you think I support or do not support 12 step programs for Christians... based upon my statement?
You posted what is a direct quote out of so-called “Christian” 12-step programs. If you are quoting the jargon then it appears that you have had some contact with the ideas. Your post indicated that you approved of the concept.
3. Don't you just hate it, when Christians jump to conclusions?
God Bless
No, Christians should judge ideas with discernment. In fact, Scripture commands it. If you are implying that I erroneously jumped to a conclusion, then you are wrong. There is nothing wrong with drawing conclusions from data. I did that and supported it with rational argument. Furthermore, if you are implying that reaching a conclusion is un-Christian, then you are wrong again. Support it!
However, you did erroneously draw conclusions about my post by reading your own ideas into it:
1. You intimated that I was opposed to intercessory prayer—I am not.
2. You intimated that I didn’t think that Christians sinned—I do.
3. You intimated that I made assumptions about you—I haven’t.
You were wrong on all points. So, what is your point?
Now, having said all that, please allow me to offer a more personal perspective. Whereas you posted an apparent statement that is unbiblical and wrong, I think that you did it ignorantly, not knowing the meaning and background of such statements and being unfamiliar with Jungian psychology and 12-step fallacies. You repeated what sounded good and reasonable to you. That’s okay. We all make gaffes and I’ve made more than my share of foolish statements and blunders. The important thing is how you respond to the information that I’ve shared with you. Don’t accept my arguments just because I cogently and forcibly stated them. Become knowledgeable in this area yourself by reading the recommended books (see my earlier posts) by Almy, Fairplay, and Bobgan. Furthermore, I highly recommend Jay Adams’
Competent to Counsel. All these are written from a Biblical, not secular or psychological, viewpoint. As a Pastor, you need this knowledge in order to counsel, warn, teach, and lead your people aright. Whenever I see error that goes against Scripture, I come on strong without apology to refute it and save others from being led astray. You have the same responsibility as a pastor. Also, check out this website for further training in this area:
http://www.nouthetic.org/
I am interested in hearing your response. Thank you.
raise the Lord people....I made it through day one smoke-free.I was a little dizzy all day and I'm sure my fiance would tell you I was almost incoherent but I MADE IT and by the grace of God and the prayers of many of you good brothers and sisters,God will deliver me.
