Harold Garvey wrote:
Something to be noticed, when Jesus told the pharisees they omitted the weightier matters of the Law, he did commend their tithing.
I now have to ask, if Jesus commended something "under the Law", then shouldn't we respect his commendation and our giving under grace to be ABOVE the tithe?
The old saying, "You cannot outgive God" is surely the truth!
--> In Matthew 23:2, 3 the Lord Jesus stated the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. He then states that what they say ought to be obeyed. One of the things they would have commanded was circumcision. Would you then tell others that they ought to be circumcised (cf. Galatians 5:6)? Remember the Lord Jesus said that they are to be obeyed here. Are you going to obey the words of the Lord Jesus?
Christians are not required to tithe
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Olivencia, Apr 19, 2009.
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We're talking about tithing, please don't hijack the thread. -
Nice dodge.
Everything that the scribes and Pharisess said to do is to be done. The Lord Jesus specifically mentioned Moses' seat. They would have said to be circumcised. Do you tell people to be circumcised?
BTW it is not hijacking the thread. Tithing is an Old Covenant command as is circumcision. So don't try to make an escape route out of your misguided theology that isn't there. -
But to help out a bit - Circumcision, in the NT, is declared to no longer 'need' be done. Can you find that in the NT about tithing?
Now, as I stated before Tithing is not 'required' of believers in NT because they were to give more than that but at the very least - that. -
There is no New Covenant command to tithe. We are under the New Covenant not the Old Covenant. The "entire" Old Covenant has been abrogated (Hebrews 8:13).
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Take for instance the paying of the Minister/Pastor by the Body/Church.
Where do you find a command to do so, and more specifically WHY and from Where it comes? You will find it bound up in the OT tithing.
Secondly, your verse doesn't apply to what we are speaking of. It speaks of being bound to the Law looking for salvation. -
a. I never wrote that you said we are under the Old Covenant. I was simply pointing out that tithing is an Old Covenant comamand.
b. The paying of the Pastor is found in 1 Corinthians 9:14.
c. Concerning Hebrews 8:13 it is more encompassing than what you say it is:
1. Danker: treat the first covenant as obsolete (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, palaiow, page 751).
2. Thayer: to declare a thing to be old and so about to be abrogated (palaiow, page 474).
3. Kittel: by setting up the new covenant God has declared the old to be outdated. God Himself cancels its validity. The final conclusion is drawn in v. 13b, where it is said that what has become old and outmoded is (obviously) about to disappear (TDNT 5:720, palaiow).
4. Kittel: God Himself declares in Jer. 31 that the first covenant is outmoded, and He promises a new one. The first covenant is now a venerable institution with all the signs of age and decay. It has no more right to existence, 8:13 (TDNT 3:282, arxiereus).
5. Kittel: The new covenant --> "It is the perfect counterpart of its predecessor, which has now been superseded and doomed to perish, 8:13; cf. 7:18f" (TDNT 3:450, kainos).
6. Louw/Nida: to cause to become old and obsolete, and hence no longer valid -'to make old, to make out of date.' 'by speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one out of date' He 8.13 (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, 67:103, palaiow, page 643).
d. Concerning the tithe this is what the NIDNTT states:
1. Brown: The NT and tithing.
Is tithing an obligation under the new covenant? The NT writers maintain an eloquent silence on the matter (note especially 1 Cor. 9:13), choosing rather to emphasize: (1) the need for spontaneous generosity (Lk. 21:4; Acts 11:28-30; 2 Cor. 8:1-3, 7; 9:5-10; Eph. 4:28; 1 Tim. 6:18; Heb. 13:16; Jas. 2:15-16) in response to God's limitless giving (2 Cor. 8:8-9; 9:15; 1 Jn. 3:17); (2) the need for individual decision (1 Cor. 16:2; 2 Cor. 9:7; cf. Acts 11:29) apart from external pressure (2 Cor. 8:8; 9:5, 7); (3) the blessedness of giving (Acts 20:35); and (4) the consequences of giving as being the glory of God or Christ (2 Cor. 8:19; 9:12-13) (NIDNTT 2:694, Number).
2. Brown: The tithe in the NT. Hence, the Christian's giving, in contrast to that of the OT saint, is not done with reluctance or compulsion (2 Cor. 9:7), nor is it limited to a tithe of each year's income. Rather it is done cheerfully, voluntarily, systematically, and with open-ended generosity (1 Cor. 16:1 f.; 2 Cor. 9:6-9) (NIDNTT 3:854, Tithe).
I'd like to see a Greek lexicon (dictionary) that states a Christian must tithe. -
Christians ought to understand the basic difference between law and grace.
If you attemp to keep one part of the law to please God you are then obligated to keep it all.
We are the children of God begotten of the Father, born and led of the Spirit. We are not Hebrews under the law. We have entered into His rest.
The Spirit will not lead us in the wrong path. We do that on our own when we leave off following Him and wander off into the world. Then the Good Shepherd comes and gets you/me. Sometimes in a not so gentle way.
The just shall live by faith, whether you give 1%, 10%, 50% or 100% it should be willingly by faith, not out of necessity or obligation but "cheerfully" for the love of the brethren and humankind.
If you have purposed in your heart to tithe, then tithe you should.
No one is saying you can't or shouldn't tithe, just that it is not a NT "requirement".
There is a promise attached to NT giving:
2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
If you sow sparingly you will reap sparingly, not receive a punishment of 40 lashes less one or banishment or death by stoning.
HankD -
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Jedi Knight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Acts 20:35 (New King James Version)
35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, βIt is more blessed to give than to receive.ββ :jesus: -
Exactly. It is more blessed to "give"...
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Jedi Knight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You know if we heard sermons on FASTING as much as Tithing we would be skinny bunch of spiritual giants! :laugh:
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Have I stated that tithing is a NT command? No, I said tithing is a principle on which we are to build the foundation of our giving.
Thus my point, there is no command to pay a pastor but a principle that is based off the OT commands. So it is with tithing - it is a priniple.
And you just proved six times over :)
Look up what a covenant is and then look to see what it means in relation to the OT and NT. It deals with Gods operation regarding His salvation toward men.
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1. 1 Corinthians 9:13 is a command. You try to make a dichotomy using the word principle but it is a false dichotomy. It references the Old Covenant but it nowhere says tithe. You assume it is understood does but it's just that - an assumption for you have cited no lexical support (except your opinion) that affirms your view.
2. Of course that is what a covenant entails. The Old (it's entirety) has been abrogated.
3. Notice that he states the NT is 'silent' regarding the tithe. The argument is often made that the silence illstrates it was something commonly accepted but the NT writers were encouraging Christ's follows to not only tithe which was also seen and spoken of as 'giving'.
--> Please supply the lexical proof (book and page number) that, "the NT writers were encouraging Christ's follows to not only tithe which was also seen and spoken of as 'giving'"
4. In terms of your misunderstanding of the NIDNTT it also reads:
Since the tithe played such an important part in the OT and in Judaism contemporary with early Christianity, it is surprising to discover that never once is tithing mentioned in any of the instructions given to the church...Paul writes about sharing material -> possessions to care for the needs of the -> poor (1 Cor. 16:1-3; 2 Cor. 8:9; Eph. 4:28) and to sustain the Christian ministry (1 Cor. 9). He urges and commends generosity (2 Cor. 9:6; 8:1-5) but never once does he demand, as a command from God, that any specific amount be given (1 Cor. 16:1 f.; 2 Cor. 9:6-9) (NIDNTT 3:854, Tithe).
--> No "command" from God that ANY SPECIFIC AMOUNT BE GIVEN. -
There is nothing in the Bible about tithing in the form of money.
There is nothing in the Bible about tithing from a regular source of income.
There is nothing in the Bible about tithing to a church.
Allan said:Everything you gave above shows that the NT is somewhat silent on it mandate.Click to expand...
Allan said:But neither does it negate a tithe either.Click to expand...
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Since there is no practicing Levitical priesthood government, there is no need for tithes to sustain them. The tithe command is now canceled. We are no longer obligated to give tithes of crops and livestock from the land of Canaan to Levites and priests.
Allan said:Our problem shouldn't be about whether or not to give 10% but whether or not we will give more :)Click to expand... -
Our problem shouldn't be about whether or not to give 10% but whether or not we will give moreClick to expand...
We have to outdo the law.
The New Covenant abrogates the old.
If anyone wants to give more or less than 10% of their income to the work they are free to do so under grace.
Obviously pastors, deacons, missionaries, etc, want you over on the "more" side but that is your decision to freely purpose (without fear of reprisal from God) by faith in your own heart.
The just shall live by faith.
HankD -
The old saying, "You cannot outgive God" is surely the truth!Click to expand...
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AresMan said:If any kind of rough equivalent could be drawn in terms of money, it would not be of income but of revenue.Click to expand...
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