Scripture Citations Are From The NRSV
Christ's Redemption and Atonement
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Jul 4, 2008.
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All Scripture Cited Is From The NLTse
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Rippon said:Allan said:Rip : You're the one with a distorted theology guiding your view of Scripture.It says very plainly that the Lord grants repentance. Yet you deny the fact.There is no such business "allowing them to repent."Click to expand...
This passages is dealing with Christians who are in sin.
Rip : The 'opponents' don't sound like Christians to me.Click to expand...
Rip : I won't deal with your distortion of 1 Timothy 2:4 at this point. However, God does not "imfractically" ( :) give all sinners alike the opportunity to repent.Tell me how the bulk of humanity who have never heard of Christ/Gospel can be said to have been given the opportunity to repent?!Click to expand...
Rip : How magnanimous of you for saying the Lord "knows all that are to come." But the Lord of the Bible has a lot more authority than that! He determines, decrees, appoints, ordains every particular.To say that he merely "knows" is kind of blasphemous.Click to expand...
Acts 5:31 :God exalted him as Leader and Savior that he might give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18 : When they heard this, they were silenced. And they praised God, saying, "Then God has given even to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life."Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Rippon said:Allan said:But this does not mean that all to who God reveals truth to will believe or come at His drawing.Click to expand...Wait a minute -- you still have John chaper 6 in your Bible, don't you?! All of those drawn come. There is no doubt about it.
Verse 37: However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.
Verse 39 : And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.
Verse 44 : For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
Verse 65 : Then he said, "That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me."Click to expand...Click to expand...
However verses 44 and 65 merely state that no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, because unless God initiates through the revelation of truth because no man can come to the spiritual truth of Christ by himself - it is only revealed to him by God. -
Rippon said:Are we copacetic?Click to expand...
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David Lamb said:Allen may be, but I've no idea. "Copacetic" is not in my dictionary (where the next entry after "cop" is "copal"). Sorry Rip, was it a typo?Click to expand...
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Allan said:It's like saying "are we clear on this".Click to expand...
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:jesus:
David Lamb said:Thanks, Allan, and apologies for spelling your name with an e before.Click to expand... -
Allan said:This is not a true statement - imo. We all are capable of believing in something and this includes Christ. However the belief or faith that we place in Christ is only when God, not man, reveals His truth to us. But this does not mean that all to who God reveals truth to will believe or come at His drawing.Click to expand...
You're taking this beyond it's context. This does not mean that not all men can believe since the wording is specific that these whom Satan is currently blinding have already rejected the truth..Click to expand...
We know that man can not come to spiritual truth of or by himself but it must be revealed to him by God who will bring light through Christ Jesus to every man (John 1:9) and the work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), that they might believe (John 3:15-17)Click to expand...
But not everyone comes whom the Father reveals such to. .... Rom 1:18-32....Click to expand...
But, more to the point, I believe that scripture teaches two sorts of revealing—a revealing that comes in word only, and a revealing that comes in word and and in the power of the Spirit.
However, I will agree that faith is in a 'sense' a gift in that if it were not for God revealing truth to us that we might believe we would continue in sin. Therefore the gift maintains it's biblical point that Christ is the gift given that we might 'have faith' in Him. (the object of our faith that saves) So it is not a gift in the sense that God gave to us something (faith itself) that we did not already possess but that God gave us Christ (something we did not have) that our faith could be placed no longer in vain things which can not save but in that which God has revealed.Click to expand...
The passage above simply speaks of believers who already received that light God sent forth due and nothing more. You're trying add to it what is not implied at all. This goes back to John 1:9 in which scripture states that Christ gives light to 'every' [single] man who comes into the world. You have taken this passage far beyond what it was intended to state contextually.Click to expand...
You will note this is about those who have accepted or already rejected the truth of God's reveliation becasue verse 4 makes a very clear statement that these whom Satan is blinding alreayd have chosen not to believe. It states "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ,.." (NASB). Satan is not keeping them from seeing the light so to never see it, but that they are unbelieving and Satan is allowed to keep them from believing. We see this illistrated very well in Rom 1 in which scripture states that after their rejection of the truth God reveals in nature through His revelation and there it states - God gave them over [to their sin, desires, et..] and can also be seen in 2 Thes 2:10-12 regarding the gospel which is rejected. It is also seen with God hardening peoples heart who do not believe or better that reject Him and or His word.Click to expand...
No you are in error for He does not 'give' us faith but the object for our faith. You are correct however in that our belief or placing of faith is a direct result of His shining our hearts - IF we will believe.Click to expand...
God does not give repentence but it is refering to God allowing them to repent.Click to expand...
This passages is dealing with Christians who are in sin.Click to expand...
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