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Featured Church And Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed1689, Apr 1, 2019.

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  1. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    What is your view of the "marriage supper of the Lamb"?
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    There is only one people of God. I think that is made clear in several places including John 10:16 and Ephesians 2:11-22, esp. vs. 14-18.
    That there may very well be a great rvival among the Jews before the end may well be true; there are certainly verses in Romans 11 that seem to point to it, but Jews will be saved in exactly the same way as everyone else.

    And this is not 'Replacement Theology;' it's Inclusion Theology, the Gentiles grafted in to the olive tree of salvation. One people of God.
     
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  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This type of generalization is about the best your view can do. I challenge you to directly address the dilemma I provided on this thread and select one of three answers for the five questions.
     
    #43 The Biblicist, Apr 2, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
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  4. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    I never heard of "Inclusion Theology" until know.

    Following is some of what I found on the internet defining replacement theology and inclusion theology.

    REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

    What is replacement theology? | CARM.org

    "...Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God..."


    INCLUSION THEOLOGY

    What is the gospel of inclusion?

    Question: "What is the gospel of inclusion?"

    ".Answer:
    The gospel of inclusion is simply the old heresy of universalism re-packaged and given a new name. Universalism is the belief that all people will eventually be saved and go to heaven..."

    Do you agree?

    If not, please provide resources to support/clarify your position.
     
  5. unprofitable

    unprofitable Member

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    Bro Biblicist,

    Since Christ gave the new covenant to the church, which covenant will national ethnic Israel be grafted into?

    Is it a different covenant/kingdom/nation than which Paul was telling the Jews of that time they would be grafted into if they did not abide in unbelief?

    Is it a different covenant body than the one in Gal 3:28 which already had both Jews and Gentiles (ALL ISREAL) in it?

    It would seem that answers to the above questions clearly show that God has not cast away Israel carnally but that the elect out of national ethnic old covenant Israel is being added to the new covenant even today and since the time that Paul wrote Romans.

    I must again ask, to which nation did Christ give the kingdom of God after he took it from Israel?

    Which covenant allows the redeemed of national Israel to preach the gospel of the kingdom, or that which had been previously taken from them?

    Will national ethnic Israel remain/become a separate nation/kingdom with a different covenant than the covenant of the holy nation of the body of Christ in I Pet 2:9?

    Will they preach the gospel of a kingdom other than that preached by Christ?

    Will they be grafted into something other than the body of Christ and the kingdom of God?

    Will they give glory to God in something other that the church? Unto Him be glory IN THE CHURCH, by Jesus Christ, THROUGHOUT ALL AGES (never changing), world without end. (Eph 3:21)

    If there is a special future awakening for national ethnic Israel, what will they believe other than what Christ has already said and taught?

    Everything comes back to the church, the kingdom of God, the body of Christ.
     
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  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The covenant promised them in Jeremiah 31:31-33 - which is repeated in Hebrews 8 and 10.

    First, Romans 11 speaks of two trees not two nations, its the same covenant, and there is only one spiritual kingdom.

    Sorry, I don't buy the universal invisible church heresy.

    Sorry, but answer two is wrong! He cannot possibly referring to the elect remnant in any of those questions.




    They will believe in the one and only true gospel.

    No "church" no "body" is mentioned in Romans 11 only two "trees".

    God will get glory through the church, he will get glory through his creation, he will get glory from those in Gehenna, he will get glory......etc. etc.

    Who said they will not believe the gospel? Who said they will not believe what Christ taught?

    No, everything comes back to two "trees" as the church/body is not found in Romans 9-11. God has but one spiritual family and one spiritual kingdom and they are not synonyms with the church as the church is simply and only a local congregational body of baptized believers and is used in the New Testament only in the abstract institutional sense, generic sense and concrete sense.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    NO! but why the frozen heart?

    Is it such an awful thought!?
     
  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    This in not a generalization. God removed the unbelievers and grafted in believing gentiles in their place. The unbelievers are not Israel, the grafted in gentiles believers are Israel along with the original Jewish followers of Christ.

    You need to define Israel according to Jesus who is Israel personified. And those who believe in him. To whom all of God's promises are Yes according to Paul. And no to any who reject him.

    There will be no national restoration. We are to preach to all nations (gentiles) until the end of the world which means the times of the gentiles remain until then.
     
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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I gave you five questions with only three possible answers. Afraid to take the test? I think you are because taking that test proves your theory is false.
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That is not surprising since I made it up. :D
    replacement Theology is a phrase invented by Dispensationalists to attack their opponents with.

    I have nothing to do with this 'Gospel of Inclusion.'. My position is as I expressed it above. There is only one people of God, believing Jew and believing Gentile, and the Gentiles are 'no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God................etc.' (Ephesians 2:19-22). There is only one household, only one foundation, only one Cornerstone and only one 'holy temple in the Lord' into which we are all growing. Whether one is Jew or Gentile, there is only one way to be saved which is by repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts of the Apostles 15:8-11).
     
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  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There has never been but one problem for all mankind since Adam and that is sin, and there never has been any other solution for this sin problem since Adam and that is the one and same salvation we preach today. The same spiritual kingdom of God has existed since Adam entered by new birth, the same family of God since Adam entered by new birth. The same promise given to Abraham is inclusive of his natural seed according to the promise of election and to a Gentile seed according to election. Both have the same sin problem and both will be saved the very same way.

    However, God has two different administrative agenda's one that is strictly Jewish according to His promise of election and one that is not Jewish but without distinction of Jew or Gentile - both are equally true and neither involves a DIFFERENT gospel, or a different way of salvation or a different Savior, only a different purpose of administration.
     
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  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    TAKE THE TEST below and attempt to answer the five questions and see if the first two answers can fit any question? Those who believe that Israel is the Church MUST make one of the two first answers fit or their theory is destroyed.

    I think Romans 9-11 settles this conclusively, especially Romans 11 deals with this issue directly. I have just a few questions for those who believe the church and Israel are one and the same today - or a spiritual Israel and that national Israel has been completely rejected by God AS A NATION.

    1. Which "Israel" is it that Paul says "has not obtained what he seeketh for" "but is blinded unto this day" in Romans 11:7-8? (1) the Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) National ethnic Israel?

    2. Which 'Israel" is it that David says "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?"

    (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) National ethnic Israel?

    3. Which Israel has stumbled and fallen so that the gospel may come to the Gentiles in Romans 11:11-12? (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?

    4. Which Israel does Paul says are "of my flesh" that only "some" of them might be saved by Paul's ministry - Rom.11:13? (1) The Remnant? (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?

    5. Which Israel has been cast away and cut off by God "because of unbelief" who are called "the natural banches" which God "did not spare: in Romans 11:14-20?
    (1) The Remnant; (2) Spiritual Israel? (3) Ethnic National Israel?


    If you are honest with these texts and context the only possible answer for all five questions is #3 Ethnic National Israel!

    Now here is your problem! The Israel that is cut off is the Israel that God "will graft them back in again" (v. 27). The Israel that has "stumbled" and "fallen" is the same Israel that God has ordained they will not remain stumbled and fallen but will be restored.

    Saved Gentiles are NEVER called "Jacob" as "Jacob" is reserved in Scripture to refer to ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL in its FALLEN condition. The Israel God has rejected that salvation might come to the Gentiles will be saved by God when the "fulleness of the Gentiles come in" or the full elect God is calling out from among them:

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    The Israel he is speaking about above is the Israel that "concerning the gospel...are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE"

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

    But with regard to God's elective purposes they are the ELECT NATION which God will save after all the Gentile elect have been saved when Christ returns and it at that moment when they see him coming they will be saved - Rev. 1:7

    Why can't Christians clearly see this? (1) Because they think salvation promises given to the Jews but are NOW being administered to the Gentiles means they are no longer applicable by God to the Jews - FALSE! (2) Because Gentiles are now partakers of the same gospel benefits and promises they have become "ignorant of this mystery....and wise in your own conceits"

    Neither Remnant elect Israel, nor Spiritual Israel have "stumbled" and have "fallen" or have been rejected by God, cut off, and only "some" saved but this is ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL and it is those who have been cut off that will be grafted in again, those who have stumbled have not permently fallen - "
    Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:"

    For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    Hence, the present day application of Jewish termonolgy to Gentile saints is only for the purpose to demonstrate the same salvation promises to elect Israel are applicable to Gentiles BUT NOTHING MORE THAN THIS.
     
  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I gave you a blanket answer for any question about Israel you might have.
     
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  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, you avoided the specific questions, which are based upon sound exegesis of Romans 11 because your view will be condemned IF you attempt to answer them.
     
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  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I gave you a complete answer for any question you might have regarding Israel's true identity.
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are avoiding these questions because they condemn your position as error and your explanations as erroneous. You would not dare try to answer those questions as it would completley condemn your position. That is why no other advocate of church=Israel dares to answer these questions. These questions are based on clear and explicit scriptures that deal with the very issue and don't you think it strange that advocates of your theory will not engage the very text that deals with this issue?
     
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Dispensationalism is a theological term used to describe a method of interpreting the Bible. Progressive Dispensation is one version of many that differs from Traditional Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists believe Christ will govern upon David’s throne here on earth for one thousand years, or in other words they take those passages literally. Therefore Dispensationalists like to excoriate the “Reformed, Replacement Theology, Amillennialists” as not interpreting the Bible literally and therefore we stand on higher ground. And so it goes in theological debate.

    Sadly the first thing to grasp is that the main difference between Covenant Theology (errant Amillennialists) and we, the virtuous Dispensationalists, has little to do with the idea that God governs man in differing ways. Both schools of thought agree God deals with man in different ways. No the chief difference is in our views of an End Times dispensation. Basically both schools agree on: 1) Dispensation of Innocence or how God dealt with man before the fall; 2) Dispensation of Conscious or how God deals with man without the Law; 3) Dispensation of the Law or how God deals with man with the Law; 4) Dispensation of Grace or how God deals with man in Christ Jesus before the Second Coming; 5) the Millennial Kingdom or how God deals with all Israel on earth after the Second Coming; and 6) the Eternal Kingdom or how God deals with his children in eternity. Now the chief difference is that the Amillennialists believe the fifth age is going on right now in heaven so the Second Coming will inaugurate the sixth dispensation. Hence, Amillennialists are against the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Rather, they hold to the idea that the Church replaced Israel (Replacement Theology) and the promises to Israel have been transferred to the Church and are being fulfilled in heaven during the dispensation of grace.

    Let me say here that the above represents my understanding of the issue and I am quite sure I have missed the mark in the details, but I believe the above properly represents the general idea. But now to the heart of the post, what is the difference between a traditional dispensationalist and a progressive dispensationalist?


    “Traditional dispensationalists typically see the 'church age' as an interruption or parenthetical period in God's dealing with Israel. The church is seen as unrelated to Israel and the new covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.” (Tim Warner)


    Progressive dispensationalists see the Church Age as a progression where God deals with the faithful in a new covenant enabled by the blood of Christ, and this Dispensation of Grace is available to those with the Law (Jews) and those without the Law (Gentiles who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament). Some but not all Old Testament promises apply to the church now, and are not being held in abeyance pending the Second Coming. Thus I can read Galatians 3 and it matches my theology perfectly. Same for Romans 9-11.


    Another area where I fundamentally disagree with many is that I believe God is using multiple dispensations at the same time. Therefore today, three dispensations are in effect, God is dealing with those without the Law, who have not heard the gospel presented in light of an understanding of the Old Testament (Dispensation of Conscience); God is dealing with those who have the Law which includes Jews and non Jews who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament but have not accepted the gospel and have not been born again (Dispensation of the Law); and three, God is dealing with born again believers, the Dispensation of Grace.
     
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  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    How do you know my motive behind posting the way I do? You judge me by your own heart.
     
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Like a lot of the stuff in Revelation, my view is based on speculation, rather than solid doctrine of scripture. I believe the Rapture will occur sometime during the first part of the Great Tribulation, and the Supper will occur in Heaven between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
     
  20. Lodic

    Lodic Active Member

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    Thanks, Van. I've just learned more about Dispensationalism from you than I learned in 30 years of being a Dispensationalist / Futurist, or in the 10 years since I left that "camp". From your description, I agree more with your view than with the traditional view.
     
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