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Featured Church And Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed1689, Apr 1, 2019.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Church and Israel, is the church true Israel? Are they separate? What, if any, are the distinctions? What are your thoughts and views?
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
    3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 2
     
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Those born from Jerusalem above Galatians 4:26, with the work of the law written in their hearts Romans 2:13-15, with hearts circumcised Romans 2:29, built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices 1 Peter 2:5 are the true Israel.
     
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  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And is there, in your view, any distinction between the church and Israel.

    To put this bluntly, I'm wanting people's views on Covenant Theology with regard to this matter.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

    14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,

    15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

    And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

    and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9


    even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22


    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12


    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12


    where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11


    There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28


    For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13


    Things To Think About
     
    #5 kyredneck, Apr 1, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
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  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...only Dispies make a distinction....
     
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  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I agree with Henry! :) :

    "'Tis ordinarily said, that the Jews were a typical people, the whole divine economy toward them is doctrinal and instructive to us, not immediately or literally, but by way of Anagogy" - Henry Hammond
     
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  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The church is Israel in a spiritual sense... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This thread shines light on the problem with Traditional Dispensationalism, the idea that the church is separate from "all Israel" is bogus doctrine. How anyone could read Galatians 3 and not see the church as a part "all Israel" is beyond me.
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, not exactly. The church and saved Israel who are part of the church. The word of God makes the distinction. Galatians 6:16, ". . . peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. . . ." And in the bride of Christ the distinction is again made (Revelation 21:12 Israel, Revelation 21:14, the 12 Apostles of the church).
     
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  11. edcar

    edcar New Member

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    i have to admit that i did not read anything like this in my entire life.
     
  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    They are the same entities. If I were to say to you, "You are a gentleman and a scholar." does that make two of you?
     
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  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't read that as two separate. I read it as there is Israel, but then there is the Israel of God that is part of the church.
     
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. And one can be a scholar and not a gentleman.
    Utter nonsense. Two distinct groups who share a common membership does not remove the distinction which makes them two distinct groups.
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Ah, but It may NOT be true. I have known gentlemen who are NOT scholars and scholars who are NO gentlemen.

    So saying that Israel is the church does not make it true.

    Israel was a shadow of things to come. For starters it was/is a community closed to gentiles. A fulfillment of the promise of land, crops, animals, etc - the birthright to the physical seed of Abraham (sands of the sea).

    The church is open to the gentiles (and the Jew) A fulfillment of the promise of forgiveness of sin, eternal life - the birthright to the spiritual seed of Abraham (stars of the heavens).
     
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  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    When the Holy Spirit says it, it's true:

    37 This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me.
    38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:
    39 to whom our fathers would not be obedient, but thrust him from them, and turned back in their hearts unto Egypt, Acts Of The Apostles 7
     
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  17. unprofitable

    unprofitable Member

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    The old covenant was given to Israel as a covenant nation/kingdom.. Both Christ and John t,he Baptist came preaching the gospel or the good news/tidings. In almost every instance where we see the word gospel we see it attached to the kingdom. The kingdom being brought forth is spoken of Luke 17:21, when Christ says, " Neither shall they say Lo here!, or lo there, for the kingdom of God in within you." This verse can also be interpreted that the kingdom doctrine is in the midst of you as a member of the elect but more importantly, a kingdom within a kingdom. Also see Deu 4:34.

    He was also pointing to Matt 16:18 where he says, "...upon this rock I will build my church (that nation/kingdom) and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." It was the beginning of the fulfilment of the prophesy/oath to gather his people/nation from every nation under heaven. Jeremiah 23:3 says, " And I will GATHER the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds, and they shall be FRUITFUL and increase. Also see Isa. 56:8

    Christ tell the chief priests and scribes in Mt 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given a nation bringing forth the FRUITS thereof." Israel as a covenant nation was going to be stripped of her authority to perpetuate the gospel. They had become desolate in their understanding of the covenant and had become as defiled as the nations. (Psalms 50:16) What nation was that covenant authority going to be given unto? Christ has already shown that kingdom in Matthew 16:18. The Holy Spirit would be given to the church at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost that it might bring forth the fruits of righteousness. The church is that holy NATION spoken of in I Pet 2:5-9.

    A nation must have a system of justice. The church is given that in the form of the new covenant. That covenant is contained in the commandments, sayings, and words of Christ. He says in John 14:15, "If ye love me keep my commandments/covenant." He is showing he was sent of the Father and was his seed. Deuteronomy 7:9 says "Know therefore that the Lord thy God, He is God, the faithful God, he is God, which keepeth covenant and mercy, with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

    The new covenant/marriage vows belongs to the church as a literal local visible body of Christ. This is a covenant Baptist Israelite people of God able to keep covenant with the Lord. It does not belong to anyone not "in Christ" because there are certain covenant commandments that only the local assembly has power and authority to observe. (Lu 9:1) The ordinances of baptism and the Lord's supper are two of those ordinances/covenant commandments.

    The name Israel means he who shall have power or rule with God. Luke 9:1 shows that transfer of power and authority to the apostles, therefore the Israel of God and a covenant people. If the country in the middle east that calls itself Israel will be a spiritual and true Israel of God, then they must be restored in the mercy of the NEW covenant which Christ gave to HIS people. (Rom 11:31)
     
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  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    "church" - ekklesia - Depends on when and by whom it was established and for what purpose.

    Acts 19:40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse. 41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly (ekklesia).
     
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my [assembly]; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Mt 16

    Right?
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Of course but He also said :

    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Israel was not commissioned to do this.
     
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