Good idea. BB should not just be a place where untested assumptions are allowed to dominate or implications go unchallenged.
So, yes ask him why a yahoo search says that he has a Dothan MA degree. Ask him why, if that be true, he doesn't list the Dothan degree. Ask him too why in the earlier edition of the guide he said Dothan was good.
Could an unaccredited school be "good." Well sure!
Could an unaccredited school as CES even teach "gooder" than does an accredited school as Liberty?
Might be, but if that is assumed or implied here, then let's at the minimum be informed of the reasons. Let's see , eg, comparisons between the schools of same level and subject courses in their objectives, materials, assignments, and strategies of instruction and evaluation.
We know that the teams of TRACS and the regional accreditor of Liberty oversees the Liberty curriculum, and I hope they do that as well as the one individual
(is it?), Walston, oversees his mentors.
My question of interest is whether, as you suggested, a master's level class from CES may be more challenging and efficient than a master's level class from Liberty.
Since you made that suggestion, and you teach at both, why would I contact Josh at CES to see if what you say is right?
Is it not sort of up to you to explain the why of the what you suggest and not up to Walston?
I am sorry for any confusion. I thought that I mentioned above in the thread that I have not as yet taught or mentored for CES.
If I have--in any way--led you to believe otherwise, I beg forgiveness. Please, as the Scripture says: "Have me excused!"
As we have seen and "talked" with and to each other over these 3 or 4 years, I have found your logic and ability to follow an argument to be impeccable.
I have not been selected by anyone to tutor or mentor or teach, my guess is b/c either they do not want what I have to offer, or I am not qualified enough when placed beside the other scholars there. Nonetheless, there was no intent to deceive.
I appreciate the clarification that you have not mentored with CES. I knew that, but I assumed you had an idea of the rigor with which you would do that since you are an approved mentor with CES, and you compared CES with Liberty (my issue here).
At any rate, our virtual friendship and mutual respect motivates me to drop the issue of CES quality, at least for now.
As I opined before in this thread, that CES hires qualified mentors, and I can add seems to have respectable requirements for degrees, motivates me to assume that CES intends to be academically respectable.
So, this old man signs off the topic...unless goaded on:laugh:
I am under the deep impression, after having talked to Josh on several occasions, that the Board of Regents (or whatever they call it) wants the mentors to get "a high pound of flesh" from each student academically speaking.
Their detail for the writing assignments, as to the format detail, was also impeccable and up to the standards that I have encountered in any of my
college, seminary, or grad school work. They use Turabian's latest iteration I believe.
Thirdly, the program would be as hard (or easy) as the mentor/professor wanted it to be. The only caveat is that the student "could find another prof" the next time around if worked too hard. But, I am also fairly sure that if the lazy student were to be reported to admin that s/he would have to hear a song and dance about what education really does mean--if you get my drift!!!
And then again the student may complain that the course lacked rigor and was not challenging.:godisgood: Also the student would see through busy work and want it replaced with fruitful work. Work me like a government mule but I need the right kind of food to do the work, and I want big powerful muscles when I'm done.
Rhet,
I talked to Mr. Walston today and he answered a number of questions that I had about the Seminary. Just thought I would let you know. Its something that I am going to look more into.
There are strengths and weaknesses on both sides and any comparison is bound to suffer if you are coming from the other side.
In my very limited experience with Liberty (1 undergrad and 1 grad student), I noted what I considered relative weaknesses.
(Disclaimer:
This is not to say Liberty is a poor program.) For one, I thought some of the tests were too heavily skewed toward objective type test items.
IMHO, graduate students need more free response items that demand the higher cognitive skills in comparison, contrast and essay instead of lists and factual recall.
Factual learning is demonstrated by its artful use in the essay response.
Also, I was a little disappointed in the Liberty system of portfolio credits (undergraduate) for life experiences.
It seemed that the assessment process and documentation lacked rigor and scrutiny.
In other words, it was too easy to make a little look like a whole lot.
In comparing the two institutions, we must recognize their different approaches to DE.
Liberty is more along the traditional lines with organizational structure and proscribed activities whereas CES is highly individualized in a more freestyle learning approach.
Who can say one approach is more rigorous than the other because there is certain to be variation even with the more structured program?
A personalized, freestyle learning approach greatly appeals to me although I do recognize the inherent problems to be worked out and the temptation for cutting corners.
Bill, this has already been done.
It is pretty well known and accepted that NA BJU (prior to their TRACS accreditation) performed better than many RA schools.
For example, the BJU School of Education in the 1970's required all of their education graduates to take the NTE.
Their scores were well above the national average and were substantially higher than all the other schools of education in SC.
They maintained this record for over twenty years.
Also, their fine arts students take a disproportionate number of prizes and honors in state and national competition.
Furthermore, their graduates have a remarkable record of success in major graduate schools.
1. One other note: I've been using Dr. Richard A. Young's Intermediate NT Greek for sometime now and it is excellent.
In fact, Dan B. Wallace, in his celebrated Greek Grammer Beyond the Basics makes ample use of Young's Grammar.
2. Young's Grammar was published in 1994 by Broadman and Holman, 11yrs before BJU NA accreditation.
And Dan B. Wallace Greek Grammar came out in 1996from Zondervan, 9yrs before BJU NA accreditation.
3. Frankly, you guys would have to put this all into perspective.
You are the experts. I'm just reporting. :thumbs:
You are absolutely right but I think this is a hazard to be encountered anywhere.
Just read Reginald Damerell's Education's Smoking Gun: How Teachers' Colleges Have Destroyed Education in Americafor an eye-opener.
Even the venerable Umass-Amherst graduate school is not immune.
IMHO, the Achilles heel of DE is accountability.
How do we allow individualized and freestyle learning and keep it accountable?
Structure and accountability mitigate against individualization, freedom and innovation.
The answer, IMHO, is to find a balance point somewhere between.
Yes, he did list a Bethany degree at one time as well as one from Greenwich University (I think).
It may be that his opinion of these degrees have changed.
We must remember that Walston was into DE early on when most of us didn't know where the field was headed.
This was a brand new game and no one really knew the rules or limits.
A lot of programs that showed early promise (e.g. Clayton University, Columbia Pacific, Trinity, Greenwich University, et. al.) have died along the way.
Perhaps his opinion of Bethany and other schools has changed over the years.
Let's look at where the man is now.
I remind you that Dr. Caner of Liberty listed a D.Min. from Emmanual University (NC) until recently.
In this tension that you mentioned above, the CES prof/mentor would certainly be able "to hold the student's feet to the proverbial fire," at least for the first course that they had together.
And I really do believe that that is what Josh wants out of all CES' grads--excellence. I have taught Church History for Liberty, BA level, and what was said above is right on the money. The courses are canned and nearly all objective.
I read an email in my Liberty mail the other day 'cause I am trying to keep my finger in that pie. They will have something like 200 adjuncts this Fall across the board in the religion DE program. That does not even count the grad programs in Religion or Seminary. I would guess that with that number of adjuncts and students it would be very difficult to do excellent work--the kind and type of work that all of us would want to be associated.