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Confessions of a Former Worship Leader

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Aaron, Dec 28, 2003.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No, actually, I don't. What I think is that discerning men reading this thread can see that if you'd been following the discussion between me and Travelsong, you would have the answer to your questions.
     
  2. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    On one hand you think of music like it is an action (and it is). How else could you have judged thrash metal as riotous or excessive? But when taken to the logical conclusion of your thinking, you suddenly switch to thinking of it like an object. And all our discussions end here.

    But, you've already made a moral judgment about a specific genre. You said it crosses God's line of decency and order. That's basically how everyone evaluates music, on the basis of its demeanor.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I have simply judged it's properties Aaron. Thrash metal does not fascilitate any meaningful pursuit of those very goals you were talking about in 2 Peter.

    Apart from that how does it make sense to call sound sinful?
     
  3. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    To clarify that a little more, your original question was much like this: "Are there certain musical styles which are associated with or can be considered excessive or riotous?"

    The answer is yes. We describe music in those terms. In all reality though, what we are saying is that the music is conveying a riotous or chaotic sentiment, not that the music itself is the sentiment. Only a person can be in a state of riotous or chaotic sentiment. The action we invariably return to is always one of a moral agent, and always returns to the heart (remember that thread? ;) )

    Remember your example of the fruit? We can't talk about whether the apple itself was righteous or sinful, the idea doesn't make any sense. As a part of God's creation, it was good and we leave it at that. When we discuss it's benefits we can approach it from two angles: The first is judging what benefit it's natural properties have for us in the action of consuming it, the second is what benefit we have in the action of consuming it despite God's commandment not to.

    Do you see how the sin lies in the action of the heart? It's the same with all sin. You can't make music sinful anymore than you can make the apple or any other natural property sinful.
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It's just the same old argument between us, TS. You say music is simply sound, I say it's communication. Saying music is simply sound is like saying language is simply sound.

    Unlike verbal communication (verbal simply means words spoken or written) no one needs to learn to understand non-verbal communication. Everyone from infancy understands anger, excitement, peacefulness, humility or arrogance in the way things are said and the looks on our faces.

    Music is nonverbal communication. It is an act, and as such can be judged as right or wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral.

    And so this is where you and I end up in every exchange. So I guess we're done. [​IMG]
     
  5. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Language is the conduit through which communication itself occurs.

    When you judge language, you are not judging the audible or visible signals a person is using to communicate, you are judging the person. The medium of language is an abstract by which our intents and thoughts are related to one another. The medium of language is not those very thoughts and intents.

    And that is why we always come to a dead end. In order to show sin in music, you need to demonstrate a thought or intent outside of the heart, and it doesn't exist, so you quit. As much as I hold a great respect for you, I am ultimately satisfied by this resolution.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    And yet, God hates a proud look. Sorry, TS. As much as you like to make everything around you neutral or amoral, even your own actions, you do so without the endorsement of the Scriptures. Even worse, you do so despite the overwhelming message to the contrary.
     
  7. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    God reserves the right to judge a proud look because he is God. He knows a proud look when He sees one, and He doesn't have to judge the face or posture to see it. The look is right on the heart.

    I think one of your problems is that you pull a snippet of Scripture and try to create a universal axiom out of it.

    I will never change my belief that sin is only in the heart unless you can demonstrate that thoughts and intents leap from the heart and run around on their own.
     
  8. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    No, actually, I don't. What I think is that discerning men reading this thread can see that if you'd been following the discussion between me and Travelsong, you would have the answer to your questions. </font>[/QUOTE]LOL! This is how you sqirm out of it? Give me a break. You interchanges with Travel have been your personal, subjective opinions. You have slammed into other's motives and yea, even their hearts. Come on, Aaron, cough it up or give it up. Where's your dogmatism? What is its roots?
     
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    How about this snippet:

    This doesn't say that Christ Himself was good, this is saying He did good works, and we were created unto good works. Not only that, but all our own works will be judged as good or evil.

    Here's another snippet:

    Seems pretty universal.
     
  10. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    What does the Bible say about how and what God judges? From where do evil deeds spring? Where does sin reside? When a man performs any action, what is it that determines whether or not his action will be sinful? When men speak, where does the Bible say their thoughts and intents originate?

    There are just far too many verses which deal with the heart and the actions that spring from it to provide an exhaustive list (somewhere around 900), but so that there can be no confusion as to where sin resides and what God judges, let's look at a small sampling:

    Now why should God be concerned with the heart before deeds? The answer my friend is because all deeds are actions of the heart!:

    One of my favorites:

    I'm concentrating mostly on sinful actions of the heart and I have skipped over volumes of Scripture which declare that a fear of God from the heart is what determines who will follow God and keep his commandments but I will include this one just because it's so direct and to the point:

    gorgeous:

     
  11. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    How do we explain this one away?

     
  12. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    Well let's see, I've covered up to Proverbs, skipping over hundreds verses, all of which demonstrate the heart is in action against God, it is the heart that performs wicked deeds and it is God who judges-what? The heart!

    Let's skip a couple hundred more and see if the New Testament is at all concerned with connecting the heart with action, or if God is still concerned with judging the heart.

    That's interesting. Do you think he means to say the sin of adultery is in the heart?

    Well we know where this is from:

    and let's end here:

    So we see from the very beginning of the Bible and through it's entirety God judges the heart, and sin springs from the heart.

    My question to you is this: Where do we see the Bible at all concerned with sin existing indpendant of the thoughts, intents, deeds and ultimately actions of the heart? Where does this kind of sin exist, and how does it even benefit me to recognize it?
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Who said the heart isn't evil? You're trying to say that works are neutral, and you accused me of misrepresenting the Scripture. Now, a snippet is all I need, but I provided more to show you that God indeed hates evil deeds, not just evil hearts. Here's some more.</font>
    • Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.</font>
    • Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.</font>
    • Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.</font>
    • Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.</font>
    Let me give you an example. A lie is evil, right? It's not an evil heart that made the lie evil, the lie is evil in and of itself because the thing you said against your neighbor was not true, and the verity (or lack thereof) of your statement is an intrinsic quality of the statement itself. Now the lie did spring forth from an evil heart, because a good heart cannot lie. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. But it's not the condition of the heart that made the work good or evil. All evil works do spring from evil hearts. No one has denied that, but the works themselves are evil in and of themselves. Even though God can see arrogance in the heart, He still hates a proud look, and no, this isn't a "look on the heart," whatever on God's green earth that means. I chose that verse because it has to do with nonverbal communication, which you assert to be neutral. Yes, God hates the thought, but He also hates the look, and there's no other way you can take that Scripture and be faithful to the text.

    And that's the real reason we come to a dead end, because you have an unbiblical view of works and of the world around you. Neutral fruit? :rolleyes:

    Didn't I say that discussions about music will always boil down to the knowledge of God and the knowledge of good and evil?
     
  14. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    There is no distinction between a deed and the heart it springs from Aaron! A lie is an action of the heart. You can't isolate a lie and treat it as some sort of independant entity.

    The works God judges are deeds of the heart. One man builds orphanages for God's glory, another for his own. What is the distinction between the two and what does God judge? The orphanage or the heart? No matter how hard you try you can't seperate sin from the heart, it's impossible as the Bible clearly demonstrates.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Sure you can, just as you can separate an apple from the tree. God does it all the time. Haven't you ever asserted that God loves the sinner yet hates the sin? The fruit is NOT the tree, but we know it's an apple tree because it bears apples. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?

    And no, I'm not saying music is an object any more than I'm saying a lie is an object. I'm merely using the allegory Christ employed to illustrate the concept.
     
  16. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    What does fruit correspond to, things or works? What are works? Actions or things?


    Sins do not exist apart from the hearts that bear them. Where there is sin, there is a disobedient heart. Sin by definition is the heart in disobedience.

    Look at those verses above. What commits adultery? What lies? What decieves? It's always the heart. Adultery does not exist outside an action of the heart. Lies do not exist outside an action of the heart. No sin exists outside an action of the heart and the Bible makes that plain as day over and over.
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Fruit corresponds to works. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

    Where there is sin, there is a disobedient heart. Sin by definition is the heart in disobedience.

    It's as Christ said, an evil tree cannot bear good fruit. Yet there is a distinction to be made between the tree and its fruit. They're both evil, but the fruit is not the tree, neither the tree its fruit. So there is also distinction to be made between the heart of sin, and the works of sin. God made that distinction in the OT calling the one sin, and the other trespass, and prescribing distinct offerings for both.
     
  18. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    I can honestly see where both of you are coming from in your presentations. Travel is focusing heavily on the origin and motivational factors. Aaron is focuing on the acting out (if I may use that phrase in this context) of those origins and motivational factors.

    Now guys (addressed to both of you), how does this tie into the music issue at hand? I would like both of you to address this in a very tight musical paradigm, please.
     
  19. Travelsong

    Travelsong Guest

    There is no distinction between the two.

    What's the difference between murder and killing someone in self defense, or accidentally killing someone? The heart.

    You can't seperate sin from the heart. As much as Aaron is saying you can he has yet to show how.

    Can sin exist external and independant of the heart?
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Well, this is where we end up all the time. Let's just agree to disagree here before we end up being hostile to one another again. [​IMG]
     
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