Featured Confirmation in 2013 of Prophetic Messages

The June 25, 1867, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald contained what apparently was the first statement on abortion to appear in Adventist literature. In an article titled "Fashionable Murder," the author, John Todd, praised the work of the Physicians' Crusade—a late nineteenth-century movement against abortion, which had been widely practiced in America during the early part of that century.
Speaking of abortion, Todd declared, "The willful killing of a human being at any stage of its existence is murder."4

The abortion question was again addressed in the November 30, 1869, issue of the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. Under the title "A Few Words Concerning a Great Sin" the Review said, "One of the most shocking and yet one of the most prevalent sins of this generation is the murder of unborn infants. Let those who think this a small sin read Psalm 139:16. They will see that even the unborn child is written in God's book. And they may be well assured that God will not pass unnoticed the murder of such children." 5

A Solemn Appeal contained the Adventist press's next reference to abortion. James White edited this book in 1870, while he was president of the General Conference. White excerpted a statement from Dr. E. P. Miller's Exhausted Vitality for inclusion in the book. The quotation he used reflects the strong sentiments of those physicians involved in the crusade against abortion. Miller castigated abortion as a "nefarious business," a "worse than devilish practice," and a "terrible sin." He went on to say, "Many a woman deter mines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has 'as many children as he can support,' instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten.
"The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure." 6

Kellogg speaks out
What about the "right arm" of the church, the medical work? In his book Man, the Masterpiece, published in 1894, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg argued against the idea that abortion was permissible before quickening. "From the very moment of conception, those processes have been in operation which result in the production of a fully developed human being from a mere jelly drop, a minute cell. As soon as this development begins, a new human being has come into existence—in embryo, it is true, but possessed of its own individuality, with its own future. . . . From this moment, it acquires the right to life, a right so sacred that in every land to violate it is to incur the penalty of death. . . . None but God knows the full extent of this most heinous crime." 7

The statements quoted above verify the little-known fact that historic Adventism was not silent regarding the abortion question. While the church did not directly involve itself in the 40-year battle to legislate anti-abortion statutes in the United States, the evidence shows where these Adventist leaders stood on the issues that crusade raised.


Ellen G. White ... did make a number of strong statements regarding the sanctity of human life. For example, she wrote: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life. . . .
"God looks into the tiny seed that He Himself has formed, and sees wrapped within it the beautiful flower, the shrub, or the lofty, wide-spreading tree. So does He see the possibilities in every human being." 8

And in another place she spoke even more directly to the point of protecting innocent human life when she wrote, "Human life, which God alone could give, must be sacredly guarded."9

 

At the risk of returning the thread - back to its subject - back on topic --- and away from the Targus derailment agenda...



1. The Bible tells us to accept the messages God gives to His prophets for the church (see 1Thess 5:19-20, Isaiah 8) and to "desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1.

2. But God also tells us to "test the spirits" and to discern between true prophets and false prophets (1Johh 4:1-3). Notice that God does not say "the test is - the prophet has to be named the Apostle John" when giving this message to John in 1John 4:1 - as so many have imagined the test to be.

In 1John 4 a test - is that they have to teach and promote the fact that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh in the incarnation.

In Isaiah 8:20 the test is that the prophet's message claimed to be from God must also be judged by and tested by the doctrines as stated in the Bible itself. (This is why I find it pointless to discuss the subject of a true or false prophet with someone before first discussing the subject of basic Bible doctrines.)

3. And another example is that the message must be found to be accurate and true in terms of events, past, present, future as it is claimed that God is making the statement - God is giving the message to a prophet.

Just a few examples of this can be found here -



Predictions Claims - fulfilled:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible



======================================================
The Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan, United States, was a health resort based on the health principles advocated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
...

The sanitarium became a destination for both prominent and middle-class American citizens. Celebrated American figures who visited the sanitarium (including Mary Todd Lincoln and Sojourner Truth) would influence and encourage enthusiasm for health and wellness among the general population. "Battle Creek Sanitarium was world renowned and became the 'in' place for the rich and famous to seek their lost health, to listen to health lectures and to learn and practice the principles of a healthy lifestyle".[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Creek_Sanitarium
======================================================


WSJ (Wall Street Journal) 2013 independent article
JAMA 2013 Article confirms health results.

(Since a number of quotes and predictions at that link involve health -- it is Interesting that the Journal of the American Medical Assoc came out with this study related to health and Seventh-day Adventists --
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...41042514.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_second)


===============
The authors tracked 73,308 members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church for almost six years. The church is known for promoting a vegetarian diet, though not all of its followers adhere to that teaching. Researchers found out what type of diet participants ate, then followed up to find out how many of those participants had died and how.
===================

4. And as far as doctrine goes - there is always the fact that she agrees with the Bible on the subject of the origin of the Sabbath - right where the Baptist Confession of Faith - ALSO agrees is the Bible origin for Sabbath -- and yet you differ.


I think you would agree that her view that the Bible origin for the 4th Commandment as given to all mankind - in Eden - is in perfect agreement with the Bible and the Baptist Confession of Faith - 1689 - -but you choose to differ.

 

Ellen White lived in the 1800's -- not today.

If your rant is that the SDA denomination needs to return to the strong position of the church during the life and teaching of Ellen White - when it comes to the subject of abortion - I have no complaint about such admonitions. I myself make them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Trevor -

Your posts are always on the subject - and I look forward to them.

My other posts are often in the spirit of trying to get the posts back on topic. So most certainly - say on - my friend.

I don't believe that God sat down across the table and told Ellen White every word to write in the book GC. I think she was given a correct understanding of certain events - and even eye-witness views of certain events that can be found by reading the book carefully for details that only an eye witness could know. In some cases she was given insight as to what this or that person was thinking or intending.

Often she will say "I was shown" or "the angel said" to emphasize the point that this part is direct revelation from heaven.

But in other cases - she is linking specific details given her - with general histories so as to take the reader logically from one point to the next.

So there is a mix. Even NT writers will quote from some non-Christian sources from time to time to make a point - as well as quoting from other Bible writers.

Would you say that of the entire Bible? I think it is true in a sense of all the Bible even though in some places Satan is being quoted. The prophet that is quoting Satan is being inspired to record the facts.

Even when Paul quotes non-Christian sources it does not mean that the non-Christian is inspired of God - but the Bible writer in selecting that quote - is inspired of God to make a certain point.

There is only 1 gift of Prophecy - according to 1Cor 12. Paul had it, Isaiah had it, Aggabus speaking to Paul had it. Anna in the temple had it. All of those in 1Cor 14 had it. None of them (except Paul and Isaiah in this list) write a single word of scripture, though they could write and probably did write messages - but they all have the same gift of prophecy. The evidence shows that Ellen White also had the gift of prophecy. One of the things that comes out on that point in the book GC - is that in her day there was sharp division between Catholic and Protestant groups. She predicted that the division would evaporate and they would work together more than not.

This was considered to be one of the most ridiculous ideas by many Christian groups evaluating her writings at the time.
She condemned the idea of medicated cigarettes - another area where medical "science" of her day objected to her statements.

Some other examples can be found here.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible

"Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God" 2 Pet 1:21.

It is all one form of communication.

Numbers 12:6 "IF there is a prophet among you - I will make myself known to him by a dream or a vision".

1Thess 5:19-20 we are to pay attention to messages God gives to us via this means whether or not the person is a Bible writer. In the case of David and Nathan - David is the Bible writer but he goes to Nathan who had the office of prophet - for instruction from God.

James 2 "He who said.... Also Said" ...

The authority is based on the source - the :"He who said" not the "He who writes what was said".

in Christ,

Bob

 

In James 2 we are told "He who said" one thing is the same "He who said.." Another. Pointing to the fact that it is not the greatness of Moses - but the greatness of God that establishes the authority of a message from God.

In Numbers 12:6 God says "If there is a prophet among you I will make myself known to him in a dream or a vision".

In 1Cor 12 - there is only one gift of prophecy - not two.

So whoever claims to be a prophet is making the claim that God is communicating to them via a "dream or a vision".

I don't see any way around that from the Bible POV.

That is a prediction about the future. Once the future arrives we can test to see if that prediction is correct.

You are free to reject whatever you wish. But rejecting a prediction about a future event either has to be based on having a better view of the future (which is not likely) or having already passed that point in time (which we have not) -- otherwise you are only left with the issue of doctrine.

If the issue is doctrine (which I have suggested is the easiest way to do the test - far easier than mustering a better knowledge of the future than the one claiming to be a prophet) - then there are a few details to note.

1. A methodist would not be inclined to approve of a Baptist prophet (bapticostals I think they call them) who claims God has approved of only believer's baptism and has rejected infant Baptism.

2. Thus a prophet in one denomination cannot be reliably evaluated by those of another denomination if that prophet is speaking on specific doctrinal differences between two - until those doctrinal differences are first resolved accurately.

The first-hand evidence that all here have from my posts so far - would indicate that the answer is a resounding "yes"!

Recall that Targus is the one that is more interested in quoting Ellen White and camping out there. In response I quote the Bible - and Targus objects.

The evidence is "in" on that one.

(I have yet to quote my "pastor").

However as Christ points out in Mark 7:6-13 the tendency of church going souls is to let the man-made-traditions of each denomination rule what they consider to be right vs wrong. He has that problem with his own disciples in Matt 16 and urges them not to be so quickly taken in by the leaven of the Pharisees.

in Christ,
Bob

 

I fully agree that there is more detailed information on certain events that God has given to Ellen White than we have from other sources. No question about it.

1. According to the Bible - the test of a future prediction made by a prophet is not "has God already told another prophet the same thing". If it was a test -- then no future prediction could ever have been made - since one would always have to be first.

2. In Rev 14 we are told that the error coming into the world in the last days would have to do with worship. Worship of the beast in vs 9-11 compared to worship of God in vs 7. And vs 7 does quote from the 4th commandment.

So while we do not get all the details from Rev 14 - there is a slight hint.

3. John the baptizer is given the future predicted sign that he would see the Holy Spirit over the Messiah as a "sign" - no other prophet in all of the Bible was given that information. Does not matter in terms of disproving John's prophecy because such a thing is not a test of a prophetic prediction according to the Bible.

In the book of Acts - a prophet (Aggabus) is told about Paul being bound hand and foot in Jerusalem - no Bible prophet had that information about Paul. Does not matter in terms of disproving his prophecy because such a thing is not a test of a prophetic prediction according to the Bible..

In 2Thess 2 Paul writing before the book of Revelation says that a being is coming in in the last days with all the signs and wonders and power of Satan himself just before the 2nd coming -- no other Bible writer had that information before Paul. Does not matter terms of disproving Paul's prophecy because such a thing is not a test of a prophetic prediction according to the Bible.

4. We can apply the tests of scripture - but we cannot make up new ones.

As I stated before - future predictions are harder to "test before hand" - but those that have already played out - are much easier to test.

Some examples can be found here.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible


in Christ,

Bob

 

Here again I don't know what your point is.

1. I agree that testing a future prediction is difficult until you reach that future - then obviously you can test it.

2. Amazing Discoveries link above -- is not the same as Amazing Facts. Are you talking about my link above or about Doug Batchelor's organization "Amazing Facts"??

3. In the link I gave - "the future" has arrived for the predictions to be tested in a number of cases. Just click it and see for yourself.

4. In this particular thread Treavor selected something that it is still in the future do our day - something just before the 2nd coming - during the great tribulation.

Until you compare it to Ex 20:11

Exodus 20 (4th Commandment):

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

That is language unique to the 4th commandment and is later quoted by other OT and NT sources - but the first that you find it is in Ex 20. That is the "source".


Psalm 146:6 "Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever"

in Christ,

Bob

 

you are quoting yourself to make up these claims. (Hint your own playbook web site does not even quote Ellen White until attempt number 4.)

Hint - Quote Ellen White actually saying something you wish to discredit -- something that shows you know what you are talking about -- because you lost all credibility on 1 and 2 alone.

And try not to get stuck making an argument that turns Jonah into a false prophet, simply because you reject Jeremiah 18.

 

The first 3 items on the list are obviously not a claim by Ellen White regarding a single vision or dream given to her by God. Nor is it even a quote from Ellen White about anything.

Oh - that's right - "we were not supposed to notice".

And the remainder of the complaints in the list primarily center around rehashing the idea that some of those who oppose Ellen White's ministry - also oppose Jeremiah 18.

What else would we expect?

in Christ,

Bob