God the father Himself determined that to happen, correct? Did not use "middlemen", but God Himself nailed Jesus upon that Christ for our sake, and Jesus agreed to that?
Confusion on just what is PSA
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Dec 18, 2017.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
What is this curse of God? It is this: 'The soul that sins shall die,' and 'after this, the judgement.' What does that look like? 2 Thessalonians 1:9. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'
But it was God's will that Christ should be 'made sin for us' (2 Corinthians 5:21). What does that mean? Isaiah 53:6 tells us: 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' He is our Surety. He undertakes for us in every respect that which we cannot do for ourselves (Romans 5:6-8). All the sins of God's elect were laid upon the sinless shoulders of Christ and He bore the penalty of them on the cross, and that must include the curse, because we are told in Isaiah 53:5, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' How could men and women be at peace with God if His curse were still upon them? He bore the wrath of God (remember Eph.2:3) and He bore the curse of God (remember Deut. 21:23), which were not upon Him as the sinless, spotless, beloved Son, but as the sin-bearer (cf. Leviticus 16:21-22), suffering outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12).
The result of this is that Christians are made 'the righteousness of God in Him.' This is Luther's 'great exchange:' our sins and wickedness are laid upon Him and He pays the penalty and bears the wrath and the curse, and His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to them. 'But of [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.' -
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I am finished on this subject until after Christmas, when I have another extended post to make (DV). All my children will be home this Christmas for the first time in three years so Mrs Marprelate and I shall be making them our priority for a while :) -
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My intent here was simply to highlight an often ignored distinction (what traditionally separated the Substitution Theory of men like Luther and Aquinas from the Penal Substitution Theory of men like Calvin. Some believe it an important distinction, others one of no consequence, and still others who can't understand the difference at all.
I wish you and your family a very wonderful and blessed Christmas. Enjoy having your children home for the holidays. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Hebrews 2:9-15 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE." And again, "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME." Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
In terms of an established view, it would be Christus Victor, but I even more than this the cross looks to the Kingdom. -
I wanted to ask, have you had a personal experience of Jesus? If so, could you describe it? if you would rather respond to this via PM, I'll understand. -
When I think of personal experience, however, I tend to think of experiences after salvation and walking with Him. I was living in Germany when I started to question my salvation. After some time I realized I had been saved as a child but had not been walking as I should. I was saved, but the evidence of my salvation came in the form of conviction and God’s work of discipline in my life rather than the fruits of the spirit. This put me on a path of diligent study, self-reflection, and prayer.
I’ve experienced Christ in a personal way when God revealed to me the error in my own doctrine a depth of His love that I had missed through tradition and acceptance of doctrines without understanding. I expect this will continue.
I’ve experienced Jesus in speaking to others about Him. I am a quite person who does not like to speak in front of people. But God has led me both to preach and teach. When I stand before a church I quickly realize that it is not me but Christ in me that makes this possible.
I’ve experienced Jesus in a wonderful way as I witnessed an atheist friend saved and become an active member of his church. I’ve experienced Christ in an amazing way through two friends who were dying of cancer and another who turned his life around. I experienced Christ with the salvation of my son.
I think that the most discernable way I have experienced Jesus in a personal way, however, is simply through the church as the local expression of the Body of Christ. Through my church I have seen the love, compassion and joy of Christ.
How about you? -
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Over the years, I have had a few experiences in which I knew God spoke to me, greatly helping me through extremely difficult situations. The last time this happened was when my mom died last February.
Had it not been for my study of atonement in the earliest churches, I don't know what I would have done. I could not accept penal substitution, satisfaction, or any of the other Latinized or modern atonement theories.
As much as I hold doctrine to be important, I have come to believe that actions are more important -- the way we treat others, love for God, humans, and the creation. -
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