Congressman calls evolution lie from 'pit of hell'

Perhaps we should adopt some ground rules. -- Just a thought.

a. People who do not believe in God tend to fully accept the theories of evolution.

b. People who generally believe there is a god also tend to accept the theories of evolution.

c. People who are born again in the body of Christ mix their belief in God with some of the theories of evolution. (Theistic evolution)

d. People who are born again in the body of Christ believe in creation as recorded in the scriptures.

Sometimes blanket statements don't work well because abcd factors.

Just 2-cents, for whatever a penny will buy today.

 

Well...ummmm...

g2c......I will have to respectfully disagree with your second paragraph there...at least partially. While I don't believe that belief in a literal 6 day 24 hour creation is necessary (initially anyway) for one to be saved, I DO believe that that conclusion will be the natural resulting conviction of any child of God that has been properly discipled AFTER being saved. Some accept that truth immediately after or at the time of salvation. That is always a blessing to see. For many though (just ask Oldtimer) it takes a process of years to undo the faulty teaching and instruction that is many times engrained in the impressionable minds of those who have been deceived by the wisdom of this world via the satanically-inspired public education system as it has gone steadily downhill over the years. I maintain my conclusion...Evolution is a lie.:thumbs:

Bro.Greg:praying:

 

If you are a theistic evolutionist then "fess up"! If you are not you cannot speak for those who are!

 

I am not and I can. I can because I see and understand the reasonableness of holding to both.

 

No one can come away from Genesis with anything like a Darwinistic impression. It has to be read into it.

Darwinism is not a reasonable conclusion for a mind guided by the Scriptures.

 

Theistic Evolution is completely unreasonable, it in effect denies the omniscience of God, implying that He must tinker around a little before He makes up His mind. Furthermore, if considered logically it denies the fall, it denies the Scriptural teaching that death was the result of the fall, it denies a literal Adam and Eve, in fact it denies the creation story making it a myth.

I present once again for your edification the words of those who see Theistic evolution for what it is:

 

That is not what OR said. You telling someone they created a strawman? That is quaint.

 

:laugh: :laugh:

 

Good Luck with that. :thumbs:

 

None so blind as those who will not see!:tear:

 

OR, that was one of the main points that helped me cast aside Theistic evolution. Until I rolled up my sleeves and began looking at the logic of those opposed, I'd never considered the roll that death has to play in this.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. This I didn't question. In fact I used to quote Gen 1:1 and John 3:16 as the "who" and "why". Evolution was the "how". In fact that's what got me in trouble with my pastor. Thank God I said the same thing to him one day.

I don't remember where I first read a rebuttal of evolution that included the death factor from the time the first spark of life came into being in an ocean somewhere. From that spark forward to the present death has to be included. Survival of the fittest cannot stand without the premise the least fit will perish.

That premise, alone, denies the whole Bible. Jesus Christ died on the cross because satan brought sin into the world. John 3:16 becomes meaningless if death existed from the very beginning. Looking at it from this perspective, death from the first spark of life denies man's fall from grace. There can't be a fall from grace if the first life forms crawling out of the ocean had means to defend themselves from the attack of predators. Predators that had "evolved" the means to kill.

Evolution education teaches us how mutations of claws and teeth of the fittest allowed them to become dominant, thus allowing the DNA of the weaker to die out. To become extinct. To die.

Back to other aspects of the theory of evolution (general term, BTW) for a moment. I'll use the Grand Canyon, again as an example. Evolution of the earth, itself, teaches that millions of years were needed to form that scar on the land. It is taught as FACT. Creation "science" teaches that it came into being in a few days, possibly a few months, as an effect of the great flood. That is not being taught in secular education.

While still being caught up in Theistic evolution, looking at that still didn't change anything. God could have used either one for the "how" of his creation. Just because I hadn't heard of the possibility that the Grand Canyon was came about in less than a year, didn't prove God chose that method. After all the scriptures tell us a day can be a thousand years.

And so it went with other creation explainations of the "evidence" we see today. Two opposing view points, each with a seemingly logical basis for merit. It does make sense that sea shells are on tops of mountains due to constant movement of the earth's crust over millions of years. It does make sense that sea shells are on tops of mountains due to the forces in play with the great flood. Each one of these could be the "how" of God.

That is until death, itself, is brought into consideration. Why did Jesus have to die on the cross for me? If those first sparks of life in the ocean were killing each other, death was already in the garden of Eden. Man "evolved" with his sin nature rather than making a willful choice to sin, as the scriptures record. Then, why did Jesus have to die to atone for a choice humans didn't make for themselves?

Thus, when death is taken into consideration as an evolution factor, it negates most of what lies between Genesis 1:2 and John 3:16. If that's the case, what is the point of John 3:17 through the last verse of Revelation?

I was left with Genesis 1:1, if I continued with my Theistic evolution opinion. I could no longer stand on my soapbox of Genesis 1:1 = who, John 3:16 = why and evolution = how.

Either I accept Genesis, as it's written, as God's word or I reject it. There is no middle ground of Theistic evolution when death is factored into the equation. My Saviour, Jesus Christ, died on the cross because death came into this world due to a willful act of man. A choice he could make. A choice that couldn't be made by single celled lifeforms in an ocean somewhere millions of years ago.

 

IMO, you will never get a logical exchange of ideas from the person you are disagreeing with. You would probably have an easier time with a person who did believe totally in evolution because that person would understand why he/she believes what they do.

It is hard to understand why it is so hard for someone to take the first part of Genesis literally. When we look around and see all that the Lord has created, our bodies, the place where we live to sustain life, the animals, the universe, etc, where do we think that came from? Romans 1 and 2 addresses this very question. Since we believe Christ is God, we see how He commanded the waves to calm in the storm, and how He told Larzarus to come forth. Those are not parables, or myths, but God Himself speaking and His Creation obeying. God literally spoke the universe into Creation. When He says, "let there be light," that is exactly what He meant, and that is exactly what happened. The only mystery of this thread is why someone would think anything else.

 

I can't speak for anyone else. I can tell you the why for myself.

First, for a long as I can remember, I had a deep interest in the "sciences". If I could have afforded the necessary education, I would have probably wound up in some field of natural sciences. I remember, as a kid wanting to go into marine biology. Remember thinking, in about the 8th grade or so, that I would major in biology with a minor in archeology or geology if I could go to college.

Because of that I devoured everything I could get my hands on relating to the "ology" of interest. Not trying to brag, at one point in basic highschool science I carried a 110 grade average. (earned extra points for explaining in class what the teacher hadn't covered yet in our lessons.)

When I should have been studing math and English my nose was buried in books on prehistoric man, volcanic activity, fossil formation, etc. & etc. By the time I was saved, I was steeped in evolution theory. Again, taught as FACT that wasn't rebutted in the depth that was needed. (It still isn't, IMO.) Thus the need to try to reconcile God's word to what I thought I knew about the history of this earth.

There was no doubt that the beautiful rainbow I saw in the sky came from God. Science taught me how God did it through the bending of light rays through water drops. God provided the means for those tiny flowers and mighty trees to "evolve" into what we see today. The examples can go on.

For the most part, church didn't teach a true rebuttal of "how" God brought all of this into being. Emphasis in church was elsewhere. And, IMO, it still is to a large extent. I don't remember anything other than a cursery (sp) look at Genesis at the time that this young mind was being filled with evolution facts. (Indroctinated!)

That's one of the reasons I'm opposed to the church using cute little cartoon tugboats and animals to portray the ark to teach children. And, so much more along this line that portray's the teachings from the Bible as fairy tales - Veggie Tales. As those cartoons that aren't any different from those showing on baby-sitting, kid-sitting televisions and video games. The distinction between them isn't readily apparent. Especially in the eyes of the young. They are told TV cartoon characters aren't real.

Just as the difference between evolution and Genesis isn't being made distinct to young and old alike. I know what it took for me to undo what had been ingrained in me through my life long interest in "ology(s)".

Perhaps, if I'd never had that interest, and had been given more than just a passing glance at Genesis over the years, it would not have been as difficult to initially accept that God created the earth and all that's in it in 6 days.

Just my 2-cents based on what's happened in my life. I'm sure circumstances in other lives are different. What happened to me may not be the case with others.

 

I wish I had taken science more seriously in high school, and other subjects for that matter. I guess my train of thought has always been that all of the theories on Creation were formulated by created, flawed thinking human beings. I have always wondered what goes through the mind of the Lord who created everything when He sees the conclusions His created beings reach about Him creating us. All of the principles involved in the various theories of creation were also created by Him. Any knowledge imparted through us through scientific research came from God, in addition to Scripture.

Why the Lord chose not to give more details is way beyond me to explain. If I am totally wrong in my views, I do know one thing for sure. God is our Savior, Creator and sustainer of life. If in the end, when we understand everything, if it turns out to be some sort of process where the Creation took eons of time vs being spoken into existence, then it will not make any difference in my eternal destiny. On this subject, I am lead to think that Genesis is a literal account.

This is sort of like the endless threads on the sovereignty of God and the mix of free will. We can debate it until the end of time (which no doubt we will), but the final answer is the way the Lord actually did it, whether we understand it or not. On this board, there are those with advanced degrees and years of school on the opposite side of the question.

The process you describe in your own life is very understandable, and no doubt you have a good grasp of the issue. The really important thing is that you always knew God performed the mighty acts. That speaks loads about your faith and testimony as a Christian.

 

You make the same point from a Christian perspective that evolutionist A. J. Mattell makes from the evolutionary perspective and you do it very well. I commend you!

Sadly a group called Bio-Logos is insisting that evangelical Christianity must adopt evolution or die. The Roman Catholic Communion has already adopted the evolutionary viewpoint. I am not sure about the Orthodox Communion!

I do not believe that the Christian Faith will ever die because God will not leave Himself without a witness on earth. However, the impact of the Christian culture will wither and die if we adopt the evolutionary concept of creation. In fact we can see it now in this country and it is practically gone in Northern Europe.

 

Well said S/N. The Apostle Paul tells us in Hebrews:

Hebrews 11:3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

We do not have the mind of God. We will never have the mind of God. We will never fully understand why God does what he does. That is where faith enters. The above Scripture tells us this relative to God's Creative activity. The prophet Habakkuk and the Apostle Paul tells us: The just shall live by faith.

If we, who are justified by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, are to live by faith it must include that which we are told in Hebrews 11:3.

 

A good summative differentiation of the views. (FWIW, I am of the ID variety) and have no problem with the concept of evolution.

In a Nutshell
We at BioLogos believe that God used the process of evolution to create all the life on earth today. While we accept the science of evolution, we emphatically reject evolutionism. Evolutionism is the atheistic worldview that says life developed without God and without purpose. Instead, we agree with Christians who adhere to Intelligent Design and Creationism that the God of the Bible created the universe and all life. Christians disagree, however, on how God created. Young Earth Creationists believe that God created just 6,000 to 10,000 years ago and disagree with much of mainstream science. Supporters of Intelligent Design accept more of evolutionary science, but argue that some features of life are best explained by direct intervention by an intelligent agent rather than by God’s regular way of working through natural processes. We at BioLogos agree with the modern scientific consensus on the age of the earth and evolutionary development of all species, seeing these as descriptions of how God created. The term BioLogos comes from the Greek words bios (life) and logos (word), referring to the opening of the Gospel of John. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made.”

The BioLogos View

The BioLogos view holds that both Scripture and modern science reveal God’s truth, and that these truths are not in competition with one another. While there are varying views within the BioLogos community of how to reconcile the truths of science and Scripture on particular issues (for example with regards to a historical Adam1), we believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired and authoritative Word of God. BioLogos accepts the modern scientific consensus on the age of the earth and common ancestry, including the common ancestry of humans.
See more on Scientific Evidence
Evolutionism
While BioLogos accepts evolution, it emphatically rejects evolutionism, the atheistic worldview that so often accompanies the acceptance of biological evolution in public discourse. Proponents of evolutionism believe every aspect of life will one day be explained with evolutionary theory. In this way it is a subset of scientism, the broader view that the only real truth is that which can be discovered by science. These positions are commonly held by materialists (also called philosophical naturalists) who deny the existence of the supernatural.
The BioLogos view celebrates God as creator. It is sometimes called Theistic Evolution or Evolutionary Creation. Theism is the belief in a God who cares for and interacts with creation. Theism is different than deism, which is the belief in a distant, uninvolved creator who is often little more than the sum total of the laws of physics. Theistic Evolution, therefore, is the belief that evolution is how God created life.
Because the term evolution is sometimes associated with atheism, a better term for the belief in a God who chose to create the world by way of evolution is BioLogos. BioLogos comes from the Greek words bios (life) and logos (word), referring to John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Intelligent Design

Contrary to some interpretations, Intelligent Design, or ID, makes no specific theological claims. Instead, proponents of ID argue that “certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection,"2 and that the existence of this intelligent cause is a testable scientific hypothesis. Furthermore, ID theorists attempt to show that intelligent causation is the best explanation for certain phenomena such as irreducibly complex systems (e.g. bacterial flagella) and the complex specified information in DNA.
Those who hold the BioLogos view also believe in intelligent causation. The universe and all that is in it has been created and is being sustained by God:
…in [Christ] all things in heaven and earth were created, things visible and invisible…all things were created through him and by him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col 1:16,17 NRSV).
BioLogos differs from the ID movement in that we have no discomfort with mainstream science. Natural selection as described by Charles Darwin is not contrary to theism. Similarly, we are content to let modern evolutionary biology inform us about the mechanisms of creation with the full realization that all that has happened occurs through God’s activity. We celebrate creation as fully God’s. We marvel at its beauty and are in awe that we have the privilege of experiencing it.
BioLogos celebrates the reality of miracles, including the miracles of Scripture, but also those we experience in today’s world through answered prayer and the work of the Holy Spirit in our own lives. However, the demonstration of such supernatural activity in the history of the natural world is, we think, unlikely to be scientifically testable.
See "Is there room in BioLogos to believe in miracles?"
To summarize, BioLogos differs from the ID movement in three respects:
We are skeptical about the ability of biological science to prove the existence of an Intelligent Designer (whom we take to be the God of the Bible), while ID advocates are confident.
We find unconvincing those attempts by ID theorists to scientifically confirm God’s activity in natural history, while ID theorists believe they have sufficiently demonstrated it.
We see no biblical reason to view natural processes (including natural selection) as having removed God from the process of creation. It is all God’s and it is all intelligently designed. Those in the ID movement for the most part reject some or all of the major conclusions of evolutionary theory.

Creationism

BioLogos affirms that the earth and the universe were created. Creationism, however, generally refers to the belief that life on earth is a result of a direct flurry of supernatural intervention in a manner that is concordant with a highly literal view of Genesis 1-3. There are two main varieties of Creationists, those who believe the earth is young and those who believe it is old.
Young Earth Creationists (YECs) hold that the earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, a figure derived from the genealogies presented in the Bible. YECs believe the most faithful way to read Scripture is through the lens of a literal six-day creation as presented in the first chapter of Genesis, and they further believe that a literal worldwide flood as depicted in Genesis 6-9 is responsible for geological features of the earth and the fossil record. YECs also reject the common ancestry of all species, believing that life was created as it presently appears by supernatural action. They view “macro-evolution” (as distinct from within-kind or within-species “micro-evolution”) as incompatible with Scripture and some even argue that it is a direct threat to Christianity.
BioLogos disagrees with the YEC viewpoint. This view rejects the discoveries of almost every modern scientific discipline to arrive at its conclusions and overlooks the revelation of God’s work in creation as uncovered by science. We also maintain that the YEC viewpoint stems from a particular interpretation of Genesis that ignores the rich cultural and theological context in which it was written.
See more on Scripture Interpretation
Old Earth Creationists (OECs) accept that the earth and universe are billions of years old, but maintain that these findings are in concordance with a literal reading of the first chapters of Genesis (often by interpreting the days of creation as long periods of time, or by understanding large gaps between the days of creation). OECs hold that modern science tightly corresponds with biblical accounts and assume that God included modern scientific ideas in the Bible, sometimes through secret language that would have been lost on the original audiences. OECs do not accept macro-evolution and the common ancestry of all life forms.
BioLogos disagrees with the OEC viewpoint. While accepting the scientific consensus for an old earth, this view rejects the findings of modern genetics, paleontology, developmental biology, evolutionary biology and many other biological sub-disciplines that make little sense apart from macro-evolution and common ancestry. Furthermore, we believe that God chose to reveal himself within the worldview, culture, and language of the biblical authors.

Where Christians Agree

Despite these differences, all Christians agree that the God of the Bible is the creator of the heavens and the earth. We agree on the authority of the Bible, even though we disagree on the best interpretation of particular passages. We agree that God is continually active in his sovereign governance of the universe, even though we disagree on how much God acts through natural law versus miracles. We are unified in our rejection of evolutionism, even though we use different strategies to counteract it (some reject the science of evolution, while BioLogos rejects the atheistic spin put on the science). We agree on the fundamentals of our faith: that all people have sinned and that salvation comes only through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We agree that the God of our salvation is the same God we see in the wonders of his creation. Whether we ponder the intricacy of DNA, the beauty of a dolphin, or the vastness of the Milky Way, we can lift our hearts together in praise to the divine Artist who made it all.

 

Following is an article by the President of Southern Seminary, Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.,in which he discusses the BioLogos movement. Emphasis is mine!

 

More on BioLogos at:

http://www.icr.org/article/creation-by-evolution-understanding/

And on Intelligent Design at:

http://www.icr.org/article/intelligent-designer-movement/

 

Call it what you will, Theistic evolution, punctuated equilibrium, intelligent design, old earth creationism, even BioLogos, any concept that introduces death into creation prior to the rebellion of Adam and Eve must be rejected as contrary to Scripture.

Jesus Christ Himself told us:

Mark 10:6-9
6. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8. And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Now what is not to understand about the statement? But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

From the beginning of creation God made. And that is the truth! Those who willingly embrace any concept that denies the persons of Adam and Eve deny the recorded words of Jesus Christ!