Featured Consider Jack and Joe - who is worse?

I find it impossible to believe you do not understand the point I am making. In your view, every man is born with a nature inherited from Adam that CAUSES him to sin. No man chooses this, we are born in this condition in your view.

It is exactly like a baby who is born addicted to crack cocaine or heroin because his mother used drugs while she was pregnant. Does any man hold this newborn child responsible and condemn him for his addiction?

And saying you condemn no one is just a deflection, my question is to you and whether you would believe it just for any man to be condemned because he was BORN a sinner when he had no say or choice in the matter whatseover.

I am not asking you to condemn anyone, I am asking you whether this is JUST.

Is it?

 

Man chooses to sin. That is a fact! As for "just", listen to Scripture.

Job 4:17. Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 9:2. I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

Romans 9:18-20
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

You are judging God Winman!

 

Jeremiah 31:3
The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying: “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.


Drag doesn't work for me the translators got it right.

God does not irresistible drag anyone. It starts with the words of life, the seed we are born again by.

Those who trust in God over their own understanding will be irresistible drawn those who do not be as a child, God will simple hide the truth from them.


Proverbs 3:


1 My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2 for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you peace and prosperity.

3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you;
bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and man.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

 

I doubt that seriously. It was addressed headon. You asked us to make a judgment based on a mythical situation.

 

Are you quite serious, Luke also thinks the supreme meal is grits, hominy and pulled pork! LOL :laugh: With all do respect to Luke, anyone who puts that diet before a NY Pizza, a NY Strip steak & a tuna melt has got some serious issues. :smilewinkgrin:

I would be curious to know what Luke's answer is to that question since your pitting me against my Brother In Christ

Who told you that.....did I ever say that.....seriously, Id sooner eat grits.

Does this sound like no choice....."Whoever wills may come" (see my commentary above)

 

More like an audition for the Disney Channel!

 

ERASED:smilewinkgrin:

Nope ...shouldnta said that....its my sin nature commin out & I apologize Scan.

Here is all Im trying to convey (not knowing Lukes understanding of things...not totally) I wont speak for him. But I believe in a Limited free will. After we are born physically, we have a will with the capability to make natural decisions both wise and unwise. Likewise, after we are born of the spirit, we have a will with the capability to make spiritual decisions both wise and unwise. Again, this makes sense & it is logical and also very comforting to me (at least to me).

 

Oh, I agree 100% that man chooses to sin, but that is not what you believe, although you will insist you do. You believe man is born with a corrupt and depraved nature, not by choice, but is imposed at birth that CAUSES him to sin. He is just as addicted to sin as a baby born to a mother addicted to crack or heroin is to drugs. It is no choice whatsoever.

You do not really believe a person chooses to sin, you believe they are irresistibly compelled to sin.

That this is true is proved by your own doctrine of Total Depravity or Total Inability that says it is impossible for the unregenerate man to choose Christ.

It is a direct contradiction to say a man can both choose and not choose, but that is exactly what you teach.

You still have neglected (or rather refused) to answer my question. In your opinion is it JUST to blame and condemn a newborn baby because he is born addicted to drugs because his mother used drugs?

Quit deflecting and answer the question please.

 

I'll take this as a "no":

Either when witnessing about the Gospel truth you tell the individual that Jesus might love them, He might have died for them, and He might want them to come to Him while keeping it real and transparent and let that person know he may have no hope because of not of being pre-selected for election, or you you hold back some of that "truth", ain't that right?

I see a pattern here, the same love call their doctrine "The Doctrine of Grace" but yet my doctrine of grace has a much broader view as it includes an "real" offer to all.

BTW, yes, those of the Determinist view must think pretty highly of their nature to believe themsleves so lucky to have been specially pre-chosen.

 

''
Whatever makes you feel good!

Just tell what Scripture says! Unless you have had a special revelation you do not need to add any of the above nonsense to it at all!

Well let us be honest here. It is God's Doctrine of Grace. Obviously yours would be faulty since, whatever it is, it is the doctrine of a fallible man!

All who are saved are "pre-chosen" as you like to say. It is simply that some are sufficiently humble to understand that Salvation is all of God. As the psalmist King David said after being confronted by the prophet Nathan:

Psalms 51:1-12
1. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

King David, a man after God's own heart, understood fully that Salvation was the purview of God only. We see it in the above Scripture.

 

You're not asking which is true, you're asking which one is more palatable to the carnal mind.

 

Ahhhh, bingo!

 

You are comparing earthly justice to God's justice. Of course we wouldn't condemn a baby for being addicted to the drugs his mother put in him, and neither does God. But everyone dies which proves that everyone is under the curse of death. Death comes because of sin. Did I personally eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Is it "just" that I have to die because of what Adam did? Yes it is....because God said so.
I have had unbelievers try to make this same argument with me many times. They give me the "God is not fair" speech. "Why should I be punished for Adam's sin?" The truth is that God has imputed Adam's sin onto us. The proof is in the fact that we die. If there were no sin in a newborn baby, then no babies would die. We are all in need of the blood of Christ, without exception because of the state of sin that we are born in.

 

Surprising that you dont find it arrogant to rationalize that you share a partnership with God in selecting salvation. Indeed, Election should be humbling. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith....and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God.....not by works, so that no one can boast": (Eph. 2:8-9)

 

Remember my dear sister in Christ that God is also merciful as well as just. If the heart of a sinner for example, is as opposed to God as the bible declares it to be & if God does not elect some to salvation.....what hope of salvation would any of us have?

I conclude then, that is Gods divine mercy at work. Personally I find that extremely humbling....like a good Samaritan picking a poor wretch from the gutter & giving him new life. In my personal case, even more humbling because I did not deserve the attention given. But......:godisgood:

 

The word draw in John 6:44

Can be translated dragged. Here is every place in the N.T. the same word was used in the NASB:

John 6:44 (NASB)
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32 (NASB)
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

John 18:10 (NASB)
10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.

John 21:6 (NASB)
6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find a catch." So they cast, and then they were not able to haul it in because of the great number of fish.

John 21:11 (NASB)
11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.

Acts 16:19 (NASB)
19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,

Acts 21:30 (NASB)
30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

James 2:6 (NASB)
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

 

Thank you Amy for having the courage to answer, though I would completely disagree with you. Romans 5:12 is speaking of spiritual death, not physical. Examine the terms used in this chapter such as judgment, condemnation, justification, righteousness, sin, etc... Not one word that applies to physical death.

Romans 5:12 says that all men die (spiritually) for that (or because) all have sinned. Verse 14 says death reigned over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin. If Adam's sin was imputed to us, then it would properly be said that all men sinned after the similitude of Adam. No, these persons died spiritually for their own personal sin.

Romans 5:12 does not say SIN passed upon all men, it says DEATH passed on all men for that all have sinned. So, I completely disagree with your view.

God's justice is not different from man's. If it would be wrong for man to condemn a newborn baby who was born addicted to drugs through no fault of his own, it would likewise be unjust and wrong to condemn men for being born sinners through no fault of their own. Abraham understood this;

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Abraham understood that it would not be right, it would not be just to destroy the righteous for the sake of the wicked. God did not disagree, but promised to spare Sodom if there were 10 righteous people there. Unfortunately, there was only Lot, his wife, and two of his daughters, and God spared them.

It is clear from Romans 9:11 that little children have committed no sin.

Physical death is actually a blessing, not a curse. If man were to live forever in his wickedness, that would be worse than dying physically, as there would be no incentive to turn from wickedness. Imagine how corrupt man would be if he lived forever! One of the greatest incentives to trust Christ is our mortality. If all men lived forever, why would man repent?

All men die as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam's sin, not because they are guilty of Adam's sin. It is like a bus driver getting drunk and driving off a cliff, all his passengers die as a consequence of his sin, but none of his passengers are guilty of his sin.

I thank you for answering honestly, no man would condemn a newborn child for being addicted to drugs because his mother used drugs, neither would God condemn a newborn child because his parents were sinners.

God commanded the Jews to execute a man for his own personal sins. They were not allowed to execute a man for their father's sin. This is because this is JUST.

Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

God does not have a double standard, he does not have another set of rules for himself, but every man shall die for his OWN sin.