1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Consistently pro-life

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by rlvaughn, May 6, 2017.

?
  1. I believe abortion is always murder.

    33.3%
  2. I believe abortion is allowable to save the life of the mother.

    53.3%
  3. I believe abortion is allowable in cases of rape and incest.

    13.3%
  4. I believe in legal access to abortion.

    13.3%
  5. I believe in pacifism, a Christian should not be a soldier.

    13.3%
  6. I believe in Just War theory.

    53.3%
  7. I believe in the death penalty.

    66.7%
  8. I believe the death penalty is wrong.

    26.7%
  9. I believe providing universal health care to others is consistently pro-life.

    33.3%
  10. I believe health care is responsibility of individuals rather than the government.

    46.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    7,308
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The election cycle brought out the consistently clamorous controversy on abortion – as it should – and yet other pro-life positions often go unmentioned. American Christians who oppose abortion are sometimes accused of having a pro-life “credibility gap”. Ronald J. Sider notes, “It is a farce for the church to ask Washington to legislate what Christians refuse to live.” (Completely Pro-Life: Building a Consistent Stance, p. 25). Abortion is a clear moral wrong, one that denies the most basic human right – the very right to life itself. Any opposition to abortion is good and right, regardless of whether the person who opposes abortion has a “credibility gap”. Nevertheless, as Bible-believing Christians we should seek to close the “credibility gap” – but not for “PC” reasons. We ought not be pro-life on only one-issue. We ought to stand in support of life in all biblical aspects.

    There are various calls to a consistently pro-life position, but not all mean the same thing when they say that. Some say that you can't be pro-life and support the death penalty – that is an inconsistent position. Others oppose abortion and support the death penalty, seeing no inconsistency. Perhaps part of the problem is that we approach it from the standpoint of logic rather than the Bible itself. What is a consistent pro-life position? Not one that appears logical and internally consistent in every facet (and no one will ever agree to that anyway) – but one that bows to the Bible as to consistent biblical truth and biblical support of life.

    A full view of “pro-life” considers many issues beyond what we believe about abortion. It begins with the biblical worldview of life itself – that God created man in his image and according to his purpose. Life comes from him and goes to him. By his own word he has forbid man taking the life of man as murder and contrary to his law and ethics. Taking the life of others exalts man into the place of God and proudly asserts one’s own being above that of others.

    Pro-life issues can be roughly divided into two categories – primarily, life and death issues (i.e., immediate threats to life); and secondarily, quality of life issues. What are your thoughts on the topic in general and/or any of the following.

    Life and death issues
    Abortion/“Choice”
    Capital punishment/death penalty
    Euthanasia/Assisted suicide
    Murder
    Suicide

    Quality of life issues
    Gun rights/Gun control
    Health care/Universal health care
    Immigration
    Poverty (e.g. feeding the poor)
    Self defense

    Some of the above and a few others seem to kind of split the categories:
    Contraception
    Genetic engineering
    Pacifism/Just war

    I have tried to create a poll that might incite some further thoughts on the issue. It fails to cover all issues, plus I ran out of possible response options. But it allows you to mark some with which you agree.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    21,721
    Likes Received:
    1,520
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I didn't select a category because "abortion" IMO is ALWAYS wrong.

    There are times however when without the removal of a fertilized egg from the body of the mother death is a certainty. e.g. Ectopic pregnancy: a pregnancy which implants outside of the womb and is certain death for both mother and child..

    HankD
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    7,308
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Just war theory" is not terminology I bandy about much. This might be true of you also, so I thought I would add a comment about it.

    Commenting on Luke 3:14, Augustine of Hippo said (according to Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica):

    In sum, a "just war theory" does not hold war to be a general good, but as sometimes necessary to correct wrong and fight evil. It should be a last resort, conducted by a legitimate authority (i.e. government, king, etc.), have a just cause, and proceed on the right intentions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    7,308
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks for the feedback, perhaps I can change the first statement to cover future votes.

    Added: Looks like I can't change it since voting has already taken place. I suppose future voters in the poll might view the first statement as "I believe abortion is always wrong." I believe this would agree with the Official position statement of the Association of Pro-Life Physicians.

    "We must respond to all tragic circumstances of pregnancy from the unshakeable foundation of two indisputable premises: human life begins at conception, and it is always wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being. The unborn child’s right to life and liberty is given by his or her Creator, not by his or her parents or by the state. The right to life is inalienable: that is, not to be trespassed upon by another."

    "When the life of the mother is truly threatened by her pregnancy, if both lives cannot simultaneously be saved, then saving the mother’s life must be the primary aim. If through our careful treatment of the mother’s illness the pre-born patient inadvertently dies or is injured, this is tragic and, if unintentional, is not unethical and is consistent with the pro-life ethic. But the intentional killing of an unborn baby by abortion is never necessary."
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    7,308
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Capital punishment/death penalty [the intentional termination of human life, legally authorized as punishment for a crime] David Gushee writes, “Capital punishment poses a serious test case to the consistent life ethic because when rightly applied it is inflicted on the guilty rather than the innocent. This does make it a different species of issue than most other life issues.” While the greatest of caution should be observed in this area of thought and practice, Genesis 9:9 and the principles of the law of Moses (e.g. Numbers 35:16-17) give government the right and responsibility of “punishing the evildoer” even to the extent of “life for life.” (Exodus 21:23)

    Euthanasia/assisted suicide [the intentional termination of life of the infirm or aged by somebody other than the person concerned, and usually by a medical professional (to be distinguished from not using extraordinary means to artificially preserve bodily functions such as heartbeat and breathing)] “Thou shalt not kill” covers one individual taking of the life of another, and does not make an exception for killing the infirm, aged, or otherwise. On the other hand, we are under no biblical instruction to simply prolong as long as medically possible the life of someone who is dying. We can biblically let death take its natural course while making the best effort to comfort those in suffering. “Right to die” and “do not resuscitate” wishes seem to be confused in the minds of many people.
     
    #5 rlvaughn, May 6, 2017
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  6. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe in the just war position but only with a very limited definition of a just war. In modern times I would certainly include WW2, might include the Korean war but would definitely NOT include the Viet Nam War, the war in Afghanistan or the Iraq war.

    I think providing health care to the needy is just as important as preventing most abortions. Those who don't include this seem to want to save the lives of the unborn but not of the born. To me, that's simply an untenable position biblically.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    21,721
    Likes Received:
    1,520
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am no socialist but I believe the advent of social medicine has come for America.

    Although doctors need to run/regulate it.

    Hammer it out up on the hill them legislate it!,

    HankD
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    11,932
    Likes Received:
    975
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pro-live is a phrase coined to relate a position on abortion, as is pro-choice (pro-choice does not mean “for every choice”). So, in terms of pro-life, I advocate protecting the unborn. I include cases of rape and incest, but when it is a case of saving the life of the mother I am more tolerant (when someone must die I do not have the right to pick which one).

    Insofar as the death penalty I hold that the mandate set forth in Scripture should be maintained (e.g., severity of the crime, two witnesses testifying to have seen the offence occur, ect.).

    I have no issue with Christians serving in the military. I read of soldiers in the Bible, but none of them are commanded to quit their jobs. I appreciate that Just War Theory sets forward ethical principles for engaging in war, but I do not know that any war fought today is truly just. At the same time, I also realize that refraining from war in certain situations cannot be called “just”.

    I do believe that we need some type of health care that will take care of the basic medical needs of those who are unable to provide for themselves. I believe this is an inherent responsibility of government. But I do not believe we need a universal health care system.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    21,721
    Likes Received:
    1,520
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I oppose the death penalty though the scripture allows it.

    I do tolerate it though since "life" imprisonment do no longer mean "life" imprisonment.

    HankD
     
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    7,308
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think a lot of patriots (of any country) tend to define the wars they fight in as "just wars" -- whether or not they really are.

    While there may be some people who are only concerned about abortion and not the lives after that, I don't think that as a general rule describes most Christians. Most know, believe and practice to one extent or another the general Christian principles for healthcare -- take care of your family, help others (poor, widows, orphans, and folks you find beaten on the side of the road, for example), etc.. But what is not clear, and where we tend to disagree, is the proper application of Christian principles to a secular government's role in healthcare (or if that is part of their biblical role. So while we both should care for others, it is questionable whether I should use your money to do so, or you mine. The Good Samaritan used his own time and dug deep into his own pocket.

    I agree with what I think you mean. Sometimes doctors can't save two lives and must make a medical decision to try to save the one they can.
     
  11. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Baptist
    With regard to a secular government's role why doesn't your argument apply to abortion? The secular government says abortion is legal but Christians can decide whether they would have one. In the case of healthcare the secular government decides not to provide it but Christians decide to aid the needy themselves or not. Both of these actions by the government result in the loss of life. Christians need to take a moral stance on government actions. They mainly do that in the case of abortion but many do not in the case of providing healthcare for those who can't afford it themselves. One of these actions results in the death of an unborn child. The other results in the death of a human being after birth. As I've shown previously, Christian churches do not have the resources to provide healthcare to everyone that ObamaCare does. So the result with individual Christians or churches taking responsibility for this results in a small partial solution at best.
     
  12. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    7,308
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree with you that Christians need to take moral stances on government actions. But I don't agree with your logic of making government relationship to healthcare the same as its relationship to abortion.

    I don't apply the argument equally to each because I do not believe they are equal. Abortion is a life and death issue; a procedure whose purpose is to take the life of a baby. Unless it is botched it will end in death. It has that aim. I believe government is supposed to regulate and punish murder, although we have stood this on its head with regard to abortion.

    Healthcare is a quality of life issue. Lack of certain types of health care may eventually end in death, but that is not a deliberate design. I have gone most of my life without any type of health care in the sense of going to the doctor or the hospital, taking prescription medicine and so on. Eventually my life will end in death (unless the Lord returns first), but it will not be the government's fault or your fault because I don't have health insurance. Even those who get the best healthcare available will eventually die, even if they have a better quality of life than I do.

    Abortion that is murder and healthcare or the lack thereof are not the same degree of life issues.
     
    #12 rlvaughn, May 8, 2017
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
    • Like Like x 3
  13. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know two people who would have definitely dies if ObamaCare had not passed. My brother, who has 3 Masters degrees and had a career as a corporate financial analyst before going to the SBS, did not have heath insurance for 16 years due to a pre-existing condition. During that period he has a major operation ( repair of a thoracic aortic aneurysm and was only able to survive that financially because the surgeon charged him nothing to do a 6 1/2 hour surgery because he respected Jim's commitment to the Lord. Jim had the option of buying insurance through a high risk pool but it was outrageously expensive. Along with the repealing of ObamaCare the GOP "health plan" included a large cut to Medicaid. Without Medicaid support my aunt who lived to be 102 would have been tossed out of her Alzheimer's care at a retirement home. How long do you think a 100 year old women with severe Alzheimer's would have lived on the street? Make no mistake about it. Health Care is not a quality of Life issue. It can definitely mean life and death. Would you feel comfortable living without healthcare insurance for 16 years like my brother did? Get real.
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,731
    Likes Received:
    3,353
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The fallacy of the undistributed middle (non distributio medii).

    Obama care: 100 year old patient lives in retirement home.
    No Obaba care: 100 year old patient lives on the street and dies.

    Middle: Family cares for 100 year old patient and she dies in the presence of loving family.

    My mother lived with us for 5 years prior to her home-going at age 102.

    My mother-in-law lived with us for 10 years prior to her home-going at 82.

    1 Timothy 5:8 is pretty specific. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    7,308
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Follow, I guess I'm not following you on this one. You seem to be saying that your brother had an operation when he did not have health care insurance and the operation was performed by the surgeon for free. So I don't understand how you are saying Obamacare saved him. Nevertheless, I'm glad the operation saved him.
    Here it seems to me that you are indicting your family as well as health plan cuts, since you imply that she would have died on the street. My mother turned 102 in April. We (me & siblings) are trying to do our best to help her live out her life in her own home. For the last 10 years we have been able to accomplish that, by God's grace, though within the last year it has come to the need of someone being with her 24 hours a day. She's not in terrible condition, but she cannot function at home alone. And I can tell you none of us are wealthy, but we dig in and do what we have to do.
    I can answer this one quite easily! I have been living without healthcare insurance for longer than that.
    That's as real as it gets.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What I'm saying about my brother is he got a special blessing from God from a godly surgeon. How many needy people would receive a gift like that? If they all did the surgeon would have to stop practicing medicine. My aunt had severe Alzheimer's the last 4 or 5 years of her life and a moderate version before that. Her care cost about $150K/year (severe part only). That comes to well over a million dollars. I couldn't have afforded that and brother has very little having pastored a poor church in a rather rough part of town. The only option would have been to release her. I'm sorry to hear that you don't have health insurance but surprised to hear that you don't consider that to be important. Do you have a full-time job? Do you have to decide between buying food and purchasing insurance? I just retired after working as an engineer for 40 years. My family emphasized the work ethic.
     
  17. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ObamaCare does not apply for anyone eligible for Social Security. The bulk of MEDICAID funding is for elderly senior citizens care in nursing homes. Oh, but the GOP "health plan" wants to significantly cut Medicaid and put those deserving people out. MAT 25:31-46 specifically addresses opposing efforts to help other people. This is the best description of the Final Judgment in the Bible. I take it seriously. Do you?
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    43,513
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No you don't.
     
  19. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Of course I'm not God. Only He knows when any of us will die. One of my friends was told that he would die if he didn't have another operation. The other has been fighting a rare form of cancer for 5 years. he's been to 5 of the b est cancer centers in the U.S. (e.g. Mayo Clinic, etc.). So you likle Trump think you know everything?
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    21,721
    Likes Received:
    1,520
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How come nobody reported on those poor souls who died because the provider(s) (like Aetna) couldn't profit and offer a viable package and therefore backed out of ObamaCare leaving folks to die while wondering around the streets? :eek:

    HankD
     
Loading...